# Iraqi museum mostly intact. Where're the abject apologies? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752 "2003-05-07T20:31:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/1 "2003-05-07T20:31:04Z")
So. Turns out that instead of the 170,000 reported missing artifacts, there may be only [25 or so](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/06/international/worldspecial/06MUSE.html) artifacts missing. Yes, 25 artifacts missing is still a regrettable loss, but nowhere even close to the scale of the 170,000 that were originally reported. I remember people posting that they’d “never forgive the U.S. military” for not preventing the destruction, and that they were abominably irresponsible for not posting guards. More armchair generalship, apparently. Might it be that the military commanders were perfectly aware that the museum officials had exhibited conspicuous foresight and moved the artifacts months before the invasion? I mean, after the scathing indictments of our tin-eared culturally deficient handling of the situation, you’d think that people would be _relieved_ that these artifacts of our common heritage are safe. But whereas the original report made headline news all over the world, the corrected version gets second-run coverage buried in the NYT website (and on page 20 of the print edition, I’ve heard.) C’mon, folks, where are the apologies to the much-maligned U.S. commanders and the equally flayed museum officials? I searched on this topic, but didn’t see any discussion. If this is alread being debated somewhere, please accept my apologies and lock this puppy up. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/2 "2003-05-07T21:04:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*C’mon, folks, where are the apologies to the much-maligned U.S. commanders and the equally flayed museum officials? > > I searched on this topic, but didn’t see any discussion. If this is alread being debated somewhere, please accept my apologies and lock this puppy up. \*\* I did start a similar thread, but those who posted mostly denied that so few objects had been stolen. No doubt, these posters will all apologize to me in this thread. :dubious: No doubt the New York Times will run a lead editorial apologizing to President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld for the Times’s high-profile criticism of the non-existent widespread looting. :dubious: No doubt various Democrats will apologize for their inaccurate attacks. :dubious: I don’t think so. As “Emily Litella” (Gilda Radner) used to say, “Never mind” ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/3 "2003-05-07T21:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Baghdad museum officials had listed only 25 artifacts as **definitely** missing[…] > > Mr. Curtis said it appeared that a vast majority of the looting at the National Museum had not taken place in its display halls but in its basement storage rooms, where more commonplace objects were kept. > > Some 100,000 to 200,000 objects were stored in the basements, British Museum officials said. Many of them may never have been photographed or cataloged. > > As a result, Mr. MacGregor said, they are precisely the types of objects that can easily slip into the black market for looted artifacts. I for one would be very happy to find out that little was stolen. Many archaeologists specifically petitioned the US gov’t before the war, stressing the importance of the museum to world history. The article does not, however, say precicely what you claim it does. I’ll have to see a more detailed report before I’m convinced either way. ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/4 "2003-05-07T22:30:23Z")
December got an ear full to be true: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181287&highlight=december](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181287&highlight=december) But if you think the liberal media is behind it, why have I not heard about this: “US troops ‘encouraged’ Iraqi looters” [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/3003393.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3003393.stm) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/5 "2003-05-07T22:41:49Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake. Look, firstly, get off the martyr train, **December**. Is ain’t going where you think it is. Secondly, let’s go to the tape: > [@](#): > > U.S. authorities have recovered almost 40,000 manuscripts and 700 artifacts that were missing from the National Museum in Baghdad, officials said Wednesday . . . At least 38 major, high-value artifacts are missing from the main gallery, officials have said. But some experts say thousands of artifacts, including priceless antiquities, may be missing and could have been taken out of the country. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86262,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86262,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/6 "2003-05-07T22:51:12Z")
“But some experts say thousands of artifacts, including priceless antiquities, _may_ be missing and _could_ have been taken out of the country.” Why am I getting overtones of the hunt for the WMD here? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/7 "2003-05-07T22:54:08Z")
Still a far cry from 170,000, Andros, which just goes to show that sometimes people need to shut their mouth every now and then and be patient for more reliable data to be released. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/8 "2003-05-07T23:10:53Z")
Hmmm…my apologies. From the links I’ve read, it does appear that more artifacts than 25 are definitely missing. I read incorrectly. If a mod would shoot this thread in the brainpan, I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/9 "2003-05-07T23:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*Hmmm…my apologies. From the links I’ve read, it does appear that more artifacts than 25 are definitely missing. I read incorrectly. If a mod would shoot this thread in the brainpan, I’d appreciate it. \*\* Your fundamental point is correct, **Ogre**. At of today, we still don’t know how many pieces are missing – not even the approximate number. We certainly didn’t know two weeks ago. Yet, quite a few went to town against Bush based on preliminary reports, which they ought to have known were highly speculative. They embellished their criticism with the story that American troops were guarding the oil ministry instead of the museum, which was totally false. The critics preferred to castigate the President, rather than to ensure that their attacks were accurate. It looks as if they were desperate to find something to bitch about. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/10 "2003-05-07T23:35:54Z")
Oh god, **december** , get bent. Did you even READ that BBC article? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/11 "2003-05-07T23:47:00Z")
Iraqi NUCLEAR SITE looted. Where are the FUCKWADS who are supposedly over there to protect AMERICAN’s from terrorists with WEAPONS of MASS Destruction ? Are a few non-missing artifacts all that you radium eating war-junkies can find to whine about ? The president should not be castigated about this, he should be castrated. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/12 "2003-05-08T00:18:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Still a far cry from 170,000, Andros, which just goes to show that sometimes people need to shut their mouth every now and then and be patient for more reliable data to be released. \*\* It ain’t exactly 25 either, as we can see. Look, reliable data is hard to come by in a wartime situation far away from home. Understated and overstated figures abound. But if I see an article saying 170,000 artifacts are stolen from the national museum of one of the oldest civilised areas in the world, it makes me sad, and angry. When it’s later pointed out that the problem is a lot smaller than initially perceived, I’m relieved. Isn’t that a normal reaction? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/13 "2003-05-08T00:52:05Z")
Hey, I’m delighted silly that we were able to recover 40,700 items. But I’m still quite ticked off that they had to be _recovered_ in the first place and that “thousands” are still unaccounted for. And appalled that any Iraquis would smash even ONE bloody tablet. So sorry, **december** , we still messed up – we’re trying to make up for it, but it did happen. But let me ask, this, why the _eagerness_ to grab any report that says only a couple dozen artifacts were lost, as a chance to rub anyone’s face in it? I never really took the 170,000 number as anything beyond the total _potential_ item-count, but I see a couple of people who seem to have trusted the 25 or 38 number no-questions-asked. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/14 "2003-05-08T01:47:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t that a normal reaction? Yes. You know what ISN’T a normal reaction? Having a fucking heart attack, screaming and frothing at the mouth about it. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/15 "2003-05-08T01:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JRDelirious \* > \*\*But let me ask, this, why the _eagerness_ to grab any report that says only a couple dozen artifacts were lost, as a chance to rub anyone’s face in it? I never really took the 170,000 number as anything beyond the total _potential_ item-count, but I see a couple of people who seem to have trusted the 25 or 38 number no-questions-asked. \*\* No, you didn’t run away with Bush’s “failure” to protect the artifacts, but a lot of liberal pundits, media, and politicians did. This issue was used to build a base Bush bash, based on bosh. That’s why I’m making a big fuss. I regret the number of missing artifacts, but it’s not my biggest concern. As **Squink** mentioned, there’s a report that nuclear material was looted while al Baradei and the US military were negotiating over who should take control of it. There’s a report that Iraq was executing political prisoners right up until the attack. Heaven knows how many Iraqis died during the couple of month UN delay, which I believe was intentionally caused by France and Russia. OTOH how many thousands of lives were saved by the rapidity of the victory? How many political prisoners were released, who would have been dead a month later? How much environmental damage was avoided because the rapid success of our military prevented all but a handful of oil well fires? The war didn’t have perfection. What war ever did? IMHO a lot more key aspects went better-than-expected than went worse-than-expected. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/16 "2003-05-08T07:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > Oh god, **december** , get bent. > Did you even READ that BBC article? What, you want him to break a lifelong habit? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/17 "2003-05-08T09:42:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrTuffPaws \* > \*\*“US troops ‘encouraged’ Iraqi looters” > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/3003393.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3003393.stm) \*\* I don’t know. This looks like a major story, if it has enough support. The article is persuasive that the US troops didn’t try to stop the looters, but it’s less clear that the Americans encouraged them. Maybe other news sources were less convinced than the BBC that US troops really encouraged the looters. Or, maybe other sources will pick up the story in the next few days. The evidence for US involvement is not strong. > [@](#): > > Rasool Abdul-Husayn , an unemployed school teacher, says he saw one American signalling the crowd to move in, with a repeated wave of the arm. Another eyewitness, Kareem Khattar, who works in a bread shop across the road from the college, saw the same thing. > > “I saw with my own eyes the Americans signal the people to move in and the looters started clapping,” says Mr Khattar. These two witnesses say they interpreted one American repeatedly waving his arm as a signal for the looters to move in. However, who knows if that’s the correct interpretation? There are lots of reasons why someone might wave his arm. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/18 "2003-05-08T11:44:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* There are lots of reasons why someone might wave his arm. \*\* I think we’ll have to trust **december** on this one. Few people can claim greater expertise in hand-waving than **december**. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/19 "2003-05-08T11:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Still a far cry from 170,000, Andros, which just goes to show that sometimes people need to shut their mouth every now and then and be patient for more reliable data to be released. \*\* Did you post that in the “WMD are FOUND!!!” threads? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752/20 "2003-05-08T20:42:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Did you post that in the “WMD are FOUND!!!” threads? \*\* Strange, I missed that thread. Can you provide a link? I was starting to think that our leaders _lied_ about there being any.😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-museum-mostly-intact-wherere-the-abject-apologies/173752.md?page=2)