# Iraqi pits peace protester on radio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144 "2003-03-17T23:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/41 "2003-03-18T14:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Has it even been established that A and B are the only choices on the menu? > Nice to see **Libertarian** posting again, by the way; welcome back. \*\* No, it hasn’t. There seem to be a number of people who are convinced that we have only two choices, Righteous War and Spineless Appeasement, but in fact there is a middle ground between them, diplomatic and economic pressure to force reform, which has not been explored to its limits, and should be. If “diplomacy has failed”, it is not so much down to the intransigence of Saddam, as to the rhetoric of President Bush, who has painted himself into a corner - he cannot, now, go back on his plans for war, without destroying his own credibility. So the thousands of people who are going to die in Iraq, are going to do so, not for the sake of peace or justice or freedom, but for the sake of preserving the US President’s chances of re-election - a cause for which I would not willingly stub my toe. And, **Libertarian**? Things are very bad in Iraq right now. But not so bad that they can’t get worse, and this is what i’m afraid of. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/42 "2003-03-18T14:45:39Z")
I’m not sure you quite understand just how [very](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ) [bad](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140101999?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ) [things](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140051997?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ) [are](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140031996?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/43 "2003-03-18T14:50:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*A guy we put in power may well be better, in our perspective, than Saddam. He may end the things that we consider heinous. But that does not mean that we will earn the gratitude and love of the Iraqi people. They might end up hating us even more. I don’t know. \*\* And that’s before you even look at the theory that the guy we put in power may well be to replace someone that we put in power. [http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saddam.htm](http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features98/saddam.htm) [http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/cia276\_files/home\_files/azpolitics\_03.htm](http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/cia276_files/home_files/azpolitics_03.htm) [http://www.greens.org/s-r/30/30-03.html](http://www.greens.org/s-r/30/30-03.html) [http://www.worldwatch.org/press/news/2002/11/26/](http://www.worldwatch.org/press/news/2002/11/26/) [http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/dec96kurdi.htm](http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/dec96kurdi.htm) Of course this has to be conspiracy theory nonsense, right? ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/44 "2003-03-18T14:53:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Well if that’s not the funniest fucking thing I’ve read this week, I don’t know what is. Out of interest, which god gifted it to them, and if he’s done so why do they need to be freed or liberated? Because I believe America and our allies have been blessed to an extent that we can come to the aid of those who cannot help themselves. That is my firm belief. Through our actions they will receive the liberty that they deserve. > [@](#): > > Let me try to explain something to you. The objection to this war is not down to selfishness, cowardice or any other of the moral faults you’d care to attribute to those who disagree with you. Excuse me, but exactly in what way were Reuben’s statements not selfish as I stated? How is “I’m against this war because there is zero benefit for Britain as far as I can see.” and “And, for some mysterious reason we’re obliged to contribute billions to ‘rebuild’ the damn place after the conflict. Well fuck that.” _not_ selfish? Also, I never attributed cowardice to those who oppose the war. > [@](#): > > It is down to the concern that waging war will cause far more trouble than it will solve. That war is an exercise that may cost trillions of dollars, and god knows how many lives, but will offer no benefit. I agree that war is not cheap, and that innocent lives will be lost. However, I disagree that this war will cause more trouble than it will solve, and that there will be no benefit. It seems clear to me that Saddam should not be allowed to remain in power. He is a mass murderer and tyrant. > [@](#): > > Why do you think that the people of Iraq will be grateful for being bombed? The purpose of this war is not to bomb the Iraqi people. I never said that it was. Regrettably, innocent lives will be lost, and I do not expect anyone to be grateful for this. > [@](#): > > Why do you think that setting up a western friendly regime will be viewed as anything other than rehashed colonialism? What proof do you have that any regime we impose will be either stable or more friendly to the people of Iraq? I don’t have any proof. There can be no proof in such an area of uncertainty. The only certainty that I have is that whatever regime is installed, it would have to be rather homicidal to top the one currently in power. > [@](#): > > How do you think other muslim countries will view this - an act of genuine altruism, or a new crusade? How much damage has this caused between previously close allies? Frankly, I don’t know how the muslim countries will view this. I would of course prefer them to see it as altruism and the removal of a dangerous and deadly regime. As for our previously close allies, I believe that they lack the fortitude to back up the UN resolutions. They would rather do what is politically expedient than what is (in my opinion) morally expedient. > [@](#): > > How many questions do you have to see raised before you accept that there are reasons other than cowardice or selfishness to be wary of war? I totally accept that there are other reasons to be wary of war. It is not something that should be entered into lightly, and there are a MULTITUDE of decisions to be made, and the ramifications of those decisions need to be analyzed. Perhaps where you and I disagree is that I feel that those ramifications have been sufficiently analyzed, and the benefits of this war outweigh the possible problems. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/45 "2003-03-18T14:54:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Of course this has to be conspiracy theory nonsense, right? \*\* You say ‘conspiricy theory’ like it’s a _bad_ thing… ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/46 "2003-03-18T15:00:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \*If we really wanted to help the Iraqi people, we would have never blockaded food and medicine from entering the country for _years_ following the Gulf War, causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands through malnutrition and preventable disease. WTF? Food and medicine are explicitly allowed. That Hussein doesn’t let any of it get to his people is just more proof that he needs to go - not a reason to bitch at the US for doing what the UN wanted done at the end of the Gulf War. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/47 "2003-03-18T15:00:21Z")
> [@](#): > > _And ten years from now, the average Iraqi will look back on Saddam’s regime and think of it as the good old days - specifically, the good old days before the Americans came._ And if someone asks for his support in bombing an American military base, or slipping some anthrax into America’s water supply, Mr. Average Iraqi will be very likely to give it. – Steve Wright > > I think you are right. – spooje Well, I disagree. When have we been oppressive occupiers? Maybe the Reconstruction after our Civil War – but even that was a cakewalk compared to the massive oppression that Iraqis suffer under now. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/48 "2003-03-18T15:05:00Z")
Keeping in mind the old saying (and I paraphrase), “Insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”, what specific ACTIONS over what specific TIMELINE toward what specific ENDING would the Peace Promoters espouse? I honestly believe there are intelligent and strategic thoughts out there, but this poor ill-informed little girl missed the memo. The German Ambassador the the UN said it beautifully after Kofi Annan spoke Monday noonish. (I paraphrase even more here) ‘It is the right thing to do to NEVER give up on a peaceful solution, even if it is only remotely possible it could ever happen.’ I respect that position. I believe it unreasonable, but I respect it. Option A: Invade, destroy, overthrow, rebuild. Option B: More of the same impotent crap we’ve done the last 12 years. Option C: Pull out, ignore, and hope it goes away. Options D through Z??? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/49 "2003-03-18T15:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I’m not sure you quite understand just how [very](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140082001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ) [bad](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140101999?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ) [things](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140051997?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ) [are](http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/MDE140031996?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CIRAQ). \*\* I can, and (on occasion) do, read Amnesty reports. I am no more in favour of Spineless Appeasement than I am Righteous War. But if, in the process of removing Saddam, we ruin the country and leave it open for factional hatreds to run riot, _things can, and will, get worse_. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/50 "2003-03-18T15:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jess \* > \*\*Well, I disagree. When have we been oppressive occupiers? Maybe the Reconstruction after our Civil War – but even that was a cakewalk compared to the massive oppression that Iraqis suffer under now. \*\* You miss the point. It’s not that our guy would be worse. It’s that the Iraqis may _veiw_ him as being worse and hate us all the more. You can never tell. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/51 "2003-03-18T15:13:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > > And ten years from now, the average Iraqi will look back on Saddam’s regime and think of it as the good old days - specifically, the good old days _before the Americans came_. And if someone asks for his support in bombing an American military base, or slipping some anthrax into America’s water supply, Mr. Average Iraqi will be very likely to give it. > > That’s what I think will happen, anyway. I could be wrong. I pray that I am. But I’m very much afraid that I’m not. Well, at least Mr. Average Iraqi won’t have been shot for voicing the opinion that his government is bad. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/52 "2003-03-18T15:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Psycho Pirate \* > **Two things. First, on a personal level, the increase of terrorist attacks against our country has prompted us to begin a campaign of systematically eliminating terrorist threats. Saddam happens to be one of these threats.** Funny, last time I checked, terrorist threats were carried out by Egyptians and Saudis, HQ’d in Afghanistan and operating out of Boston. Where does Iraq figure in to this, again? And how will an unprovoked attack against the Mideast reduce terrorism? Perhaps, for answers, we can turn to that bastion of freedom, that America-loving, flag waving, free market icon of Democracy, Afghanistan. Isn’t it great how we bombed them into Freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/53 "2003-03-18T15:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*I can, and (on occasion) do, read Amnesty reports. I am no more in favour of Spineless Appeasement than I am Righteous War. But if, in the process of removing Saddam, we ruin the country and leave it open for factional hatreds to run riot, _things can, and will, get worse_. \*\* I’m a firm believer that anything is possible. I just saw Saddam’s spokesman, Nick Robertson, on Al Jazeera’s western bureau (CNN), reporting about the “massive protest” against the US there and concerns from Iraqi people that mirror your own. Unfortunately, I had already seen the uncut feed on a competing network of the “massive protest”, which consisted of about 36 old men waving rifles, filmed by Saddam’s son who owns the television station. If there is a more clear-cut case of a modern loaves-and-fishes miracle in that incident constituting a “massive protest”, I haven’t seen it. As we all know, Saddam won his recent election unanimously. 100% of more than 40 million people voted for him. It is not beyond the realm of possibility, I suppose, that a less popular leader might conceive and execute worse things than genocide, infanticide, torture, rape, ethnic cleansing, cultural destruction, and wholesale repression of dissent. One thing is certain: if there is a single Iraqi who is displeased, Nick Robertson and CNN will let us know. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/54 "2003-03-18T15:24:11Z")
**Lib**! Great to see you back. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/55 "2003-03-18T15:32:13Z")
Thanks, Jjimm. You too, Mange. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/56 "2003-03-18T15:33:37Z")
This Pit Thread was begun because a caller to a radio show asked a Peace Promoter a specific question, to which she had no answer. That may not have been worded very well, so I tried to reword it back on page 1. There are intelligent people on this board. There are Peace Protestors/Promoters on this Board. Do those two circles not intersect? What are the options? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/57 "2003-03-18T15:39:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*from **Lib** :[.i] > > …Al Jazeera’s western bureau (CNN)… > > …One thing is certain: if there is a single Iraqi who is displeased, Nick Robertson and CNN will let us know. First, welcome back my friend; I missed you. Second, I’m a bit mystified at the implication you make that CNN is a forum for Iraqi-government propaganda, or controlled/influenced in some major way by Al Jazeera. Am I reading you wrong, or do your actually believe this? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/58 "2003-03-18T15:39:27Z")
The US government is not going to deliberately _install_ a dictatorship in Iraq. The danger is that, in the subsequent unrest, the government they do install is either forced to _become_ a dictatorship, or falls and is _replaced_ by one. Neither option benefits the Iraqi people one whit. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/59 "2003-03-18T15:41:47Z")
> [@](#): > > There are intelligent people on this board. There are Peace Protestors/Promoters on this Board. Do those two circles not intersect? It’s not that peace advocates are not intelligent, but that they are more anti-Bush than they are pro-peace. In addition, judging from the posts I’ve read here, the peace advocates have a sweetly naive view of Middle East geopolitics and Saddam’s regime. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/60 "2003-03-18T15:42:51Z")
For those who think nothing needs to be done, you might want to look [here](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-614607,00.html) for an article about some first-hand reports. There are those who said when Hitler’s “camps” were found that they had no idea such things were happening, and that had they but known they might have done something sooner. Whether that is the case or not, Saddam and his sons make Mengele look like Mother Teresa. Diplomacy and containment have been being tried for years. They did not work. It’s long past time to get on with it. What’s the alternative? “Disarm in 2 weeks or… or… or I’ll give you another 2 weeks”? Interesting that now the speculation is that SH will begin by deploying those bio-chem weapons that he doesn’t have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=4)