# Iraqi pits peace protester on radio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144 "2003-03-17T23:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/81 "2003-03-18T17:08:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*I can, and (on occasion) do, read Amnesty reports. I am no more in favour of Spineless Appeasement than I am Righteous War. But if, in the process of removing Saddam, we ruin the country and leave it open for factional hatreds to run riot, _things can, and will, get worse_. \*\* I’m missing the logic here. You seem to be saying “Yes, things are terrible in Iraq, but if we attack they _might_ get worse”, no? If we don’t attack they will stay terrible, so you’re saying we shouldn’t even try? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/82 "2003-03-18T17:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*I’m missing the logic here. You seem to be saying “Yes, things are terrible in Iraq, but if we attack they _might_ get worse”, no? If we don’t attack they will stay terrible, so you’re saying we shouldn’t even try? \*\* Oh for fucks sake, don’t try to look thick. Things are terrible in Iraq, but perhaps bombing the shit out of people might not make it better. Why not have a look for alternative options. If our entire problem is with Saddamn, and all we’re looking to do is release the poor Iraqis from his evil reign, etc, etc why not just assasinate the beret wearing gimp and his fucking family? Or is this somehow not noble enough, as compared to a full invasion along with accompanying civilian deaths? And if that won’t work, why not look at any of a number of alternative schemes rather than just saying “fuck it, get the tanks out”. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/83 "2003-03-18T17:33:39Z")
YES! We had **Steve Wright** ’s Option D (similar to the last 12 years, but after changing the UN), and now **Gary** ’s Option E, ASSASSINATION! ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/84 "2003-03-18T17:35:47Z")
I was not trying to poke fun at **Steve Wright** , merely the later option. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/85 "2003-03-18T17:53:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Oh for fucks sake, don’t try to look thick. Things are terrible in Iraq, but perhaps bombing the shit out of people might not make it better. Why not have a look for alternative options. > > If our entire problem is with Saddamn, and all we’re looking to do is release the poor Iraqis from his evil reign, etc, etc why not just assasinate the beret wearing gimp and his fucking family? Or is this somehow not noble enough, as compared to a full invasion along with accompanying civilian deaths? > > And if that won’t work, why not look at any of a number of alternative schemes rather than just saying “fuck it, get the tanks out”. \*\* The people of Iraq are already having the shit bombed out of them, to the tune of millions killed and missing. I provided cites earlier. Aside from the fact that assassination is illegal, I think there are obvious tactical and strategic disadvantages. Saddam commands an army, and his government is a military dictatorship. Merely assassinating him will result in merely a new military dictator rising from the ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/86 "2003-03-18T18:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Oh for fucks sake, don’t try to look thick. Things are terrible in Iraq, but perhaps bombing the shit out of people might not make it better. Why not have a look for alternative options. > > \*\* Oh, yes, I’m thick, but you’re saying that what the U.S. plans to do is simply “bomb the shit out of people”. Unless you can provide cites that prove that the current U.S. military targets anything other than military targets in Iraq, I’d have to say that you are full of shit. Don’t worry about it, I’m not planning to assasinate you or anything. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/87 "2003-03-18T18:11:27Z")
I agree that there is a human cost to leaving Saddam in power, as well as a substantial long-term risk that is hard to quantify. He does control an oil rich state. **Libertarian** shows just a fraction of the human costs to leaving him in power, still a grim picture. Sometimes those in the peace movement forget that there is high ground for those who support ‘regime change’ - war - especially in the case of a horrible dictator like Saddam. But, things could go horribly awry. The US attempting to rule Iraq in the interim until establishing a democracy - just saying it makes it sound almost impossible. Bush is really rolling the dice for something he has come to believe in. Give him credit for that. His presidency is 100% at risk over the outcome. In a few weeks, or less hopefully, we may have preliminary answers to some of the big questions. One, a very important one, how many people are going to have to die to cause this regime change? If Saddam implements some of the plans I’ve seen on the internet, and the Iraqis follow through, there could be thousands of intentional civilian casualties. We must find a way to keep Saddam from slaughtering his own people as his final act. Two, will Iraq fragment and civil war break out? Sort of a big question to have no idea about the answer. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/88 "2003-03-18T18:12:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > \*\*I’m against this war because there is zero benefit for Britain as far as I can see. \*\* As a newbie, I’ve been spending most of my time in the forum lurking and trying not to say anything too stupid, but the irony of this post was just too much. You’re right. As far as I can see, Britain will get nothing out of this war, much as the United States would have got nothing out of helping Britain in 1940 when Britain was fighting its lonely war against a tyrant, as was slowly being bled dry. There are few, if any, commonalities between this situation and 1940, but I seem to be hearing some of the same isolationist arguments. And before you say it, I know the United States did _not_ step in until 1941 when its own interests were directly attacked. I’m saying that the United States was wrong _on every moral level_ for not coming to Britain’s aid until then. I’m still ambivalent about the wisdom of this war; my arguments seem to change depending on who I’m arguing with. We probably won’t know for about ten years or so whether it was the smart move or not, or whether the cost in deaths and dollars will be worth the eventual outcome. Again, it was the just the irony . . . ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/89 "2003-03-18T18:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **Oh, yes, I’m thick, but you’re saying that what the U.S. plans to do is simply “bomb the shit out of people”. Unless you can provide cites that prove that the current U.S. military targets anything other than military targets in Iraq, I’d have to say that you are full of shit.** [Operation Shock and Awe](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/18/1047749770358.html) ain’t going to be no picnic. Despite the claims of “quantum accuracy”, the collateral damage from this is likely to be enormous. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/90 "2003-03-18T18:16:55Z")
I think assassinating him would be a very tall order. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/91 "2003-03-18T18:17:14Z")
Most of you seem to be missing the caller’s main point. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m against this war because there is zero benefit for Britain as far as I can see. We risk British lives, the UN’s place in the world order, and a significant increase in Islamic terrorism, for what? Nothing. \*\* This is a valid basis for opposing a war in Iraq. Whinging on about how much a war will harm the Iraqi people **is not** a valid basis for opposing a war in Iraq. The caller made the point beautifully. _Some_ Iraqi’s will die in a war. But if nothing happens, nothing will get better and Sadaam Hussein will continue, directly and indirectly, offing Iraqi’s by the cartload. Estimates I’ve seen seem to say that worst-case civilian casualties in a war would be about six months worth of deaths caused directly by Hussein and by deprivations caused by the sanctions. So protest against the war all you want. There’s a lot to be said against it. But don’t try and fool yourself that your opposition to the war is somehow benefiting the average Iraqi. It’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/92 "2003-03-18T18:34:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*[Operation Shock and Awe](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/18/1047749770358.html) ain’t going to be no picnic. Despite the claims of “quantum accuracy”, the collateral damage from this is likely to be enormous. \*\* Maybe. But I wonder how much of the collateral damage will come from Saddam himself. I don’t think he can kill another 1.2 million before it’s all over, but how close do you think he might get to doubling his tally? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/93 "2003-03-18T18:43:48Z")
**Did anyone hear the woman actually say that she believed that leaving Saddam in power would result in peace and justice?** I would really like to know. Most of the peace protestors that I know do **not** want him to remain in power. I admit fully that the young woman did not make a good spokes-person for her organization. Very voice was weak, she was not articulate and she was obvious nervous – thus the giggles. I did notice that the question would be reapeatedly asked and she would begin with “What I am saying is…” And then she would be interruped by voices that could drown her out. At one time she said “What I am saying is…” And the caller interrupted with shouts of something like “She’s just saying the same thing over again!” How did he know what she was going to say? The use of “little girl” is as dismissive as someone using the word “boy” in reference to an adult black male. Why would someone who supports the war have to resort to such tactics? If he didn’t _have_ to, the why did he do it? Although she isn’t up to the job of spokes-person, that does not mean that her point of view isn’t valid. It just means that she was not able to make herself heard. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/94 "2003-03-18T18:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*[Operation Shock and Awe](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/18/1047749770358.html) ain’t going to be no picnic. Despite the claims of “quantum accuracy”, the collateral damage from this is likely to be enormous. \*\* Excuse me, I believe you delibertly misunderstood what I said. I did not say that they would not be civilian casualties, what I asked for was to “provide cites that prove that the current U.S. military targets anything other than military targets in Iraq”. Can you do this or is this simply another “Dude, war sucks” arguement? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/95 "2003-03-18T18:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\ ***The use of “little girl” is as dismissive as someone using the word “boy” in reference to an adult black male.** What?!? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/96 "2003-03-18T18:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\ ***Did anyone hear the woman actually say that she believed that leaving Saddam in power would result in peace and justice?** I would really like to know. > > Most of the peace protestors that I know do **not** want him to remain in power. > > I admit fully that the young woman did not make a good spokes-person for her organization. Very voice was weak, she was not articulate and she was obvious nervous – thus the giggles. > > I did notice that the question would be reapeatedly asked and she would begin with “What I am saying is…” And then she would be interruped by voices that could drown her out. At one time she said “What I am saying is…” And the caller interrupted with shouts of something like “She’s just saying the same thing over again!” How did he know what she was going to say? > > The use of “little girl” is as dismissive as someone using the word “boy” in reference to an adult black male. Why would someone who supports the war have to resort to such tactics? If he didn’t _have_ to, the why did he do it? > > Although she isn’t up to the job of spokes-person, that does not mean that her point of view isn’t valid. It just means that she was not able to make herself heard. \*\* I don’t see you answering the question either, Ma’am. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/97 "2003-03-18T19:05:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I did notice that the question would be reapeatedly asked and she would begin with “What I am saying is…” And then she would be interruped by voices that could drown her out. At one time she said “What I am saying is…” And the caller interrupted with shouts of something like “She’s just saying the same thing over again!” How did he know what she was going to say? Because that one time followed a whole bunch of times that began with “what I am saying is…” and were followed by evasion. The answer to his question does not begin with “what I am saying is…”. It begins with “leaving Saddam in power would be better because…”. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/98 "2003-03-18T19:24:03Z")
**Zoe** The point is that you cannot oppose the war in Iraq on the basis of promoting “peace and justice.” If “peace and justice” were the issue, the anti-war protesters should be pro-war protesters. I agree, a war in Iraq is a really bad thing. I’d like to see a viable alternative. The biggest problem with the anti-war movement is that, aside from fuzzy platitudes, they have nothing to offer. If the world is going to get rid of Sadaam Hussein, it’s going to have to be by force. You can argue that a war in Iraq will have serious geopolitical consequences for the United States and its allies. You cannot argue that a war in Iraq will not benefit the average Iraqi. It is beyond dispute that Iraq will be a vastly more “just and peaceful” place under a U.S. led occupation than it is now. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/99 "2003-03-18T19:24:52Z")
It’s a loaded question that doesn’t deserve to be answered. It’s structured in such a manner that it is a statment in the form of a question. To base your position on the conflict soley on the answer to that question is not on shortsighted, it’s offensive. There are many questions that can be used in a meaningfull debate on this topic, this question is not one of them. That said, I suspect the female caller would have blindly disagreed with even the most salient arguments for war, which adds nothing to the debate as well. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/100 "2003-03-18T19:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > The answer to his question does not begin with “what I am saying is…”. It begins with “leaving Saddam in power would be better because…” **Lib** , did you not read **mic84** ’s responses on page 1? The question is not valid. The woman was not arguing that “leaving Saddam in power” would do _anything_; she was arguing _against_ the **most radical possible method** of removing him from power. No invasion != No action For my own part, and because I promised **gobear** I’d give my reasons, I’ll state my objections to this particular method of deposing Saddam Hussein: 1. Preemptive war as a method of removing a despotic head of state and installing someone else has as its single advantage the fact that, when conducted by a vastly superior military force, it is a sure way of vanquishing your enemy. However, a major disadvantage is that it radically and unpredictably changes the political relationships not only between the aggressor, their allies, their potential targets and all the neighbors of the soon to be vanquished. I see no reason to believe that a preemptive war so pervasively condemned by the neighbors of our current and potential targets _and_ by many of our normal allies will produce a positive change in our political relationships with those nations. 2. My government has justified this action with a string of lies. I don’t trust their motives; I suspect that venalities and imperialist ideologies are driving this, rather than dismay over SH’s weapons capabilities or his horrendous actions against his own people. 3. This invasion will directly produce tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of deaths. These deaths, rather than the deaths expected to result from the unimpeded actions of a dictator, will be _our responsibility_. When there are other direct actions in opposition to the monster Saddam that are available to us, I cannot support war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=6)