# Iraqi pits peace protester on radio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144 "2003-03-17T23:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/121 "2003-03-19T07:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*But _nobody_ wants the status quo! In fact, my concerns are founded on the fear that war on Iraq now will leave us back at the status quo - albeit under a different dictator than Saddam, but that’s no consolation to the Iraqi people - within a few years. The status quo or worse. And worse _is_ possible. > > And if I, a computer programmer whiling away some time during a database backup, can come up with a slightly credible plan to remove Saddam without _necessarily_ going to war, then I’m sure people who actually _know_ about this stuff could do better … which makes me think that the alternatives to war have not been thoroughly explored. \*\* What plan do you mean? Assassination? I already explained why that’s a bad idea. Quite honestly, if you think that you came up with a credible plan while people like Colin Powell have been incompetent, it should make you think something other than that “the alternatives to war have not been thoroughly explored”. It should make you think you might have overlooked something. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/122 "2003-03-19T07:13:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avumede \* > \*\*Gee, Libertarian, for a Libertarian you seem to enjoy telling other people what is in their best interest. I don’t know what the Iraqis in Iraq think. I am not them. That is why I pointed to the dear\_raed blog (better link is http://dear\_raed.blogspot.com). \*\* If they voluntarily choose to have their tongues cut out, their children poisoned, their daughters raped, and their villages wiped out, then I have no problem with it. But going, “Gee, maybe they don’t mind … I can’t know what they think about it,” is disingenuous beyond belief. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/123 "2003-03-19T07:17:20Z")
gobear said: > [@](#): > > Do you really think Saddam can be removed in any way other than force? I honestly don’t know. But the young woman and I may not be of the same mind anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/124 "2003-03-19T07:18:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > Weirddave said: > Which question do you want me to answer, sir? 😉 (There wasn’t one in the OP.) Since I agree that the original question-“How exactly will leaving Saddam in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?”- is somewhat loaded, I’ll try to phrase it in a more useful way. How will the cause of peace and justice be served without removing Saddam by force, AND, how will your alternative(to force) work where 12 years of diplomacy have failed? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wabbit \* > \*\*Listen, I for one am not going to be sorry when Saddam is gone so I can’t say I’m against the war. But I will say this: I think Bush is one of the most incompetent presidents we’ve ever had. I have no faith in his leadership which looks to me like it was cobbled together from an 8th grade history textbook with a healthy dose of Yosemite Sam added in. He has single-handedly managed to unite a good chunk of the world around Saddam–a guy with no redeeming qualities what-so-ever. This is just nuts! This war is going to be more costly in blood and money than it had to be all because Bush and his merry band of arrogant idiots didn’t want to take the time to actually try some nuanced diplomacy before running off with their dicks half cocked. What a damn mess. And they’re not even going to pay for their incompetence–we American citizens are. We’re the ones going to be straining to make ends meet after the economy tanks and we’re the ones that are going to be taking bullets to win this idiot’s little war. At worst he’ll get a job as an highly-paid exec or consultant if he doesn’t get re-elected–big sacrifice there. > Quite frankly–fuck him and the horse he rode in on. He’s not a leader, he’s a damn spoiled 2-year-old who finally got some new toys to play with. > To hell with him. \*\* Amen ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/125 "2003-03-19T07:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > **KC, I’m against this war at this time and with this level of international opposition.** Did I miss a memo? Is Chirac the king of the world all of a sudden? Maybe France is simply wrong to oppose us. So what? Are they that much of a military superpower that we can’t do without them? Are they that much of a political power that we should value their judgement above our own? (Seriously, how much of a political and military power are they? I could be wrong about that.) What I regret is not having Germany on our side, but maybe they’re wrong too. Regardless, they’re not the only countries in the UN, and they’re not the majority by any means. We’ve got [a total of 45 countries](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/18/sprj.irq.int.reaction/index.html) supporting us. I don’t call that a frightening level of international opposition. I’m not bothered about France. I’m going to keep using my Lancome cosmetics and enjoy my **Three Colors** trilogy and eating my French fries. I buy these things from American stores staffed by Americans; why take it out on them? The potatoes were grown in Idaho, so the French don’t get any benefit from my consumption of them. (And the director of **Three Colors** was Polish.) I’m not going to waste time being petty about a country whose support we don’t need. I’m just glad we have Britain, and, recently, Australia. No offense to Brits or Aussies here who oppose the war; I do, however, extend thanks in advance to your armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/126 "2003-03-19T07:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* We’ve got [a total of 45 countries](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/18/sprj.irq.int.reaction/index.html) supporting us. \*\* I guess that would depend on how defined support. Last I heard, only us, the Brits and Australians were sending any troops. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/127 "2003-03-19T08:05:05Z")
> [@](#): > > If you won’t respect our arguments enough to fairly characterize them, why the fuck should we listen to a damned thing you say? Then clarify, please, Xenophon. I gave you my school bully analogy, and I still believe it works quite well with the situation: People are afraid that punishing Iraq for human rights’ violations will cause Iraq to undergo more human rights’ violations, and thus we shouldn’t attack him. With the added comment that I am well aware that this characterization doesn’t apply to anyone else, how, exactly, does my accusation of people “being afraid to get their hands dirty” not apply? > [@](#): > > Is this not precisely, although with slightly different emphasis, what us peaceniks have been saying? No. I am saying that war is not the only option. Peaceniks, typically, are saying that war is the _worst_ option. I am hardly gung-ho or bloodthirsty. I dislike the idea of a war, especially since I know precisely how unpredictable a war - any war - can be. I also am well-aware of what possible atrocities might happen, whether it’s due to an off-course cruise missile or Saddam’s plans to use human shields. Which reminds me… Since you picked on me, Xenophon (deservedly so… keep me honest, bucko), I’m gonna pick on you right back, and ask you, specifically, the question I asked right above: If Saddam were to announce to the world “If one bomb goes off in my country, I will kill a thousand Iraqi’s,” would that make more or less opposed to a war? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/128 "2003-03-19T08:06:31Z")
**spooje** , I meant we’ve got 45 people telling us they **don’t** think this war is wrong. As opposed to three loud ones telling us they think it is. That’s why I only thanked the servicepeople of Britain and Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/129 "2003-03-19T08:07:42Z")
45 countries in the UN, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/130 "2003-03-19T08:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*45 countries in the UN, that is. \*\* Actually, as far as coallitions go, I’m forced to admit that this one is a bit silly. > [@](#): > > \*\*Washington said its coalition consisted of 30 countries plus 15 others that did not want to be named. \*\* So 15 countries are supporting the U.S. but are too embarrassed to admit it? Gee, thanks! That _really_ enhances the U.S. diplomatic position! I sort of picture the U.S. running one of those pledge breaks they have on public television in the U.S. "You know, it’s the support of countries like you that allow us to bring you these quality conflicts. For a pledge of only 1000 troops, as our gift to you, we’re offering this lovely SCUD missile and this procurement guide to re-building postwar Iraq. If you pledge at the 10,000 troop level, you’ll receive the SCUD missile, the procurement guide AND your choice of an infrastructure or oil services contract! Assistant secretaries of state are standing by to take your pledge so call now and help us reach our goal of a broad coallition of the willing!" ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/131 "2003-03-19T10:50:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*What plan do you mean? Assassination? I already explained why that’s a bad idea. Quite honestly, if you think that you came up with a credible plan while people like Colin Powell have been incompetent, it should make you think something other than that “the alternatives to war have not been thoroughly explored”. It should make you think you might have overlooked something. \*\* No, I’m not the one who suggested assassination - my master plan basically involved infiltration and subversion. It’s back on page two, I’m not typing it all out again … I don’t believe Colin Powell is incompetent. I _do_ believe he is being constrained by people (President Bush foremost among them) who, for whatever reason (and it may seem a good reason to them), actually _want_ a war. And I do not believe that war is the only option, or the best option, still open to us. In times of crisis, people turn to strong leaders; this is how dictators arise. The aftermath of a US-led invasion will be a time of crisis for Iraq. This is why I think it’s likely - overwhelmingly likely - that the overthrow of Saddam by force will result in him being replaced by somebody every bit as bad. (Most likely, some fundamentalist Islamic theocrat who will rise to power by blaming everything on the Great Satan America.) And the people of Iraq will end up just as oppressed as they are now, only with more of their economic infrastructure destroyed by the war. If you can _guarantee_ that the war will result in the actual liberation of the Iraqi people, then you’ve got a point … but if the only result is to change dictators, then it’s not worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/132 "2003-03-19T11:05:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*Unless you can provide cites that prove that the current U.S. military targets anything other than military targets in Iraq, I’d have to say that you are full of shit. Don’t worry about it, I’m not planning to assasinate you or anything. :rolleyes: \*\* You really are an idiot, aren’t you. Donald Rumsfeld : > [@](#): > > “He deliberately constructs mosques near military facilities, uses schools, hospitals, orphanages and cultural treasures to shield military forces, thereby exposing helpless men, women and children to danger,” In other words, Saddam has used the obvious tactic of intermingling civilian and military facilities, just to make sure you cannot target one without hitting the other. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Aside from the fact that assassination is illegal, I think there are obvious tactical and strategic disadvantages. Saddam commands an army, and his government is a military dictatorship. Merely assassinating him will result in merely a new military dictator rising from the ranks. \*\* Assasination is illegal, but somehow war isn’t? Listen, the US and the UK have both demonstrated they’re prepared to ignore international law on this one. Why worry now? And let me repeat the original quote in context, just so you can try to answer the actual point > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Why not have a look for alternative options. > > If our entire problem is with Saddamn, and all we’re looking to do is release the poor Iraqis from his evil reign, etc, etc why not just assasinate the beret wearing gimp and his fucking family? Or is this somehow not noble enough, as compared to a full invasion along with accompanying civilian deaths? > > And if that won’t work, why not look at any of a number of alternative schemes rather than just saying “fuck it, get the tanks out”. \*\* Your entire argument relies on the premise that there are only two options : War, and do nothing. The fairly simple point I’m trying to hammer in through this jingoistic bullshit is that there are a number of other options, none of which have been even moderately entertained. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/133 "2003-03-19T11:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > So 15 countries are supporting the U.S. but are too embarrassed to admit it? Gee, thanks! That really enhances the U.S. diplomatic position! What a very CNN statement! 😃 They’re not embarrassed. Kuwait is hosting 149,000 troops. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and even France are allowing usage of their air space. Turkey will vote today to allow troop movements through their country and usage of their airspace. Another silent member is Iran, who has pledged to accept refugees. The main reason the fifteen nations want to be listed separately, according to the State Department, is because they do not want to flame anti-U.S. sentiment. Rather than being embarrassed, their motivation is to protect their relations with the U.S. > [@](#): > > And let me repeat the original quote in context, just so you can try to answer the actual point I answered your “actual point”. Let me repeat the original response just so you won’t miss it again: “Aside from the fact that assassination is illegal, I think there are obvious tactical and strategic disadvantages. Saddam commands an army, and his government is a military dictatorship. Merely assassinating him will result in merely a new military dictator rising from the ranks.” Assassination is a jejune suggestion, and work against a despotic military regime. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/134 "2003-03-19T11:41:06Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I’m not the one who suggested assassination - my master plan basically involved infiltration and subversion. That’s already been done. Special forces have been inside Iraq for quite some time. But this isn’t a game of _Civilization_. Just because you plant a spy in the embassy doesn’t mean that the capital is going to begin to lust after your culture. Your plan fails for the same reason assassination does. Neither will break apart the military ranks. In a military rank structure, when one node topples, the others immediately realign and the structure is immediately restored. Only elimination of the structure itself is effective. Once again, I believe that it is a mistake to presume to have some sort of epistemic superiority to the diplomatic and military professionals who are handling this. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/135 "2003-03-19T12:34:37Z")
It’s also a mistake to follow our leaders blindly on the assumption that they know what they’re doing and are acting solely from the purest of motives. History has shown this repeatedly. For whatever reason (and I hope you notice I’m refraining from speculation as to _what_ reason), the leadership of the West _wants_ war. So of course they’re telling us it’s necessary and inevitable … whether this is actually the case or not. In a free society, I believe it’s positively my _duty_ (if said society is to remain free) to question my leaders and examine alternative plans of action. And I can’t help feeling you’re not addressing an issue I’ve raised, which I feel is central. As you correctly point out, this is not a game. Which means, when it’s over, we will not be turning our computers off and making a cup of tea … we will be faced with the reconstruction of the Iraqi government. How, having deposed Saddam, do you propose to _guarantee_ he won’t simply be replaced by another dictator? And if he is, what’s the point of deposing him? Your stated objective is the liberation of the Iraqi people from torture and oppression. Not only am I not convinced war is the _only_ way to achieve that, I am not convinced it will even work at all. And I will require better arguments than “Mr President knows best” to convince me, thank you very much. If this is a presumption of epistemic superiority on my part, so be it. Quite honestly, I think I _am_ brighter than George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/136 "2003-03-19T12:49:04Z")
> [@](#): > > In a free society, I believe it’s positively my duty (if said society is to remain free) to question my leaders and examine alternative plans of action. One man’s duty is another man’s dream, I reckon. Here’s to the hope that one day soon, we will have Iraqi Dopers who can voice their views as you and I are doing now. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/137 "2003-03-19T13:09:18Z")
Non sequitur at its best **Lib**. You dream of freedom in Iraq. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/138 "2003-03-19T13:15:38Z")
You’re confused. I wasn’t refering to my dream. Imagine yourself in a circumstance where voicing your opinion would result in your tongue being cut out while you bleed to death in the town square. Where being suspected of dissent would result in your daughter being raped in your presence or your son being tortured while you are forced to watch. Where your whole town is poisoned as you stumble over the bodies of dead children in a vain attempt to escape. Who would be dreaming of freedom? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/139 "2003-03-19T13:16:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* But this isn’t a game of _Civilization_. Just because you plant a spy in the embassy doesn’t mean that the capital is going to begin to lust after your culture. > \*\* If only we had built temples and cathedrals in Israel a hundred or so years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/140 "2003-03-19T13:17:20Z")
😃 We could send them a bunch of entertainers! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=8)