# Iraqi pits peace protester on radio **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144 "2003-03-17T23:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/141 "2003-03-19T14:42:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by **SPOOFE** :_ > > …I’m gonna pick on you right back\*, and ask you, specifically, the question I asked right above: If Saddam were to announce to the world “If one bomb goes off in my country, I will kill a thousand Iraqi’s,” would that make more or less opposed to a war? > > [\*deservedly, of course - _ed._] Well, the comment would certainly make me even more opposed to Saddam. However, it would and should have no bearing in the present context on a decision whether or not to wage war. Such rhetoric would add no new information about human rights in Iraq or about Saddam Q. Evil’s predilection for brutality. Are you suggesting foreign policy based on emotional reactions to extortive threats? > [@](#): > > _originally asked by **Rilchiam** :_ > > Did I miss a memo? Is Chirac the king of the world all of a sudden? Yes, you missed the memo. Despite the lack of millions of people protesting against this war, despite the near-universal rallying around the US invasion by citizens of the Earth, the one and only opponent has been appointed king. Drat. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/142 "2003-03-19T14:51:48Z")
Somebody got the wrong memo. 😉 Millions of people have protested, but billions have not. The Coalition of the Willing is the third largest military coalition in the history of the world. And France is engaged in considerable back-peddling and fence-mending even as we speak. They’ve already said the US can use their air-space and that if bio-chem weapons are used by Saddam, they will send troops. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/143 "2003-03-19T15:03:30Z")
**Lib** , millions of people have organized against world hunger and AIDS, but billions have not. This must mean that on the whole, the world wants those things, eh? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/144 "2003-03-19T15:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*Did I miss a memo? Is Chirac the king of the world all of a sudden? > > Maybe France is simply wrong to oppose us. So what? Are they that much of a military superpower that we can’t do without them? Are they that much of a political power that we should value their judgement above our own? (Seriously, how much of a political and military power are they? I could be wrong about that.)\*\* My left nut has more sway then they do. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/145 "2003-03-19T15:29:34Z")
**xenonphon41** - The only one of the “lies” you cited that has not been refuted by **zigaretten** is the Nigerian uranium connection, and that seems to have been an intelligence failure rather than a lie. Perhaps a nitpick, but I don’t want you to turn into **elucidator** , who spouts those kind of accusations like a creationist does references to Piltdown man. > [@](#): > > There seem to be a number of people who are convinced that we have only two choices, Righteous War and Spineless Appeasement, but in fact there is a middle ground between them, diplomatic and economic pressure to force reform, which has not been explored to its limits, and should be. The trouble being that, without the threat of war behind them, Saddam does not and will not respond to “diplomatic and economic pressure”. Saddam knows perfectly well that he has nothing to fear from the French. He has successfully stalled for twelve years, during which he simply denied access to the inspectors with no consequences to himself. (Obviously his thefts and violations of sanctions have caused immense suffering to the Iraqi people, but he cares nothing for that.) Now we have a President who, for a number of reasons, has decided really to enforce the terms of the ceasefire. The response of the French, Russians, and the rest of the Axis of Weasel seems to be, “Well, he hasn’t done it for twelve years, but give him another month and he will.” But he doesn’t. Read the report from Hans Blix. Saddam has **not** been forthcoming, he has **not** cooperated with the inspections, he has **not** , in other words, done what the French and Germans claim he would, given even more time. Is it any wonder that he has made the calculation that if simply continues with his “cheat and retreat” strategy, he will wear out the opposition, who (apart from Bush and Blair) have made it quite clear that they will never use force to make Saddam live up to his commitments? Saddam does not, he has not, responded to “diplomatic and economic pressure”. Not for twelve years, not when Clinton fired missiles at him, not when his people starve, not when the Kurds revolt against him, not ever. There comes a time when enough is enough. I cannot imagine any way in which Saddam could make it any clearer that he will _never_ abide by his commitments. He is **not going to change.** Ever. And so we move to the next step, which is regime change. It is like a patient who is on every conceivable form of life support, who has terminal and inoperable cancer. The doctors will always be able to think of another thing to try. A different drug, another machine, another operation, some more radiation - always one more thing. But everybody knows the patient is dying, and that nothing is going to change that. Better to eliminate the suffering, even if it means that the patient’s family is going to grieve today instead of three weeks from now. Enough is enough. Let’s finish this, and start the (no doubt long and painful) process of allowing Iraq to develop into a disarmed, and (hopefully) marginally better regime that does not threaten its neighbors and torture its own people. No, it is not going to be quick, and a golden age for Iraq is not a few years away. But at the very least, the Wicked Witch of the Middle East is about to have a house dropped on him. Because allowing the French to sky-write “Surrender Dorothy” for the next dozen years is not going to help any more than it has for the last dozen years. Regards, Shodan PS - And welcome back again, **Libertarian**. ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/146 "2003-03-19T16:02:54Z")
Just FTR since it’s come up several times in the thread, [here’s](http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/04/us.assassination.policy/) a summary of the legality of assassination. It’s not as cut and dried as one might think. > [@](#): > > According to an October 21, 2001, Washington Post article, President Bush in September of last year signed an intelligence “finding” instructing the CIA to engage in “lethal covert operations” to destroy Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization. > > White House and CIA lawyers believe that the intelligence “finding” is constitutional because the ban on political assassination does not apply to wartime. They also contend that the prohibition does not preclude the United States taking action against terrorists. One thing the article doesn’t mention is a House Resolution (19, I think) that Bob Barr submitted that would rescind the executive order against assassination in its entirety. However, I don’t know what’s happened to that resolution, it’s possible that it died in committee. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/147 "2003-03-19T16:13:01Z")
Thank you, Shodan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/148 "2003-03-19T16:24:01Z")
I forget where I read it or heard it, but someone said if Saddam really wanted to disarm, the inspectors could simply hang out in a parking lot, while the Iraqis brought the weapons to them to be accounted for. Rotten paraphrase, but you get the gist. Anyhoo, South Africa and the Ukraine seemed to disarm with a lot less fuss. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/149 "2003-03-19T17:21:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*You really are an idiot, aren’t you. \ > > In other words, Saddam has used the obvious tactic of intermingling civilian and military facilities, just to make sure you cannot target one without hitting the other. > > \*\* Wait, wait, this is a good one. You don’t see any difference between targeting one thing and hitting something different(civilians) at the same time,( especially when that something different has been put there by the enemy to make sure that when you hit the target you will hurt, maim and kill the enemy’s own civilians) and indescriminate bombing of civilians, is this correct? Hmmmm. I think you’re correct, idiot IS the right word to be used here, you’re just pointing it in the wrong direction. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/150 "2003-03-19T19:27:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Somebody got the wrong memo. > > Millions of people have protested, but billions have not. You are forgetting that apparently the only place where war has popular support is the US, and even that is fairly shaky. You could say that 45 or so countries support us. More accurate would say that the rulers of 45 or so countries support us. Most do so despite the populace being firmly anti-war. The war is simply not very popular, even in our best ally - Britain. So we’re in this to let the Iraqi people have a voice in their government, while simultaneously partnering with an array of governments who are ignoring their people’s voices. > [@](#): > > If they voluntarily choose to have their tongues cut out, their children poisoned, their daughters raped, and their villages wiped out, then I have no problem with it. But going, “Gee, maybe they don’t mind … I can’t know what they think about it,” is disingenuous beyond belief. But they are free to have their own opinions, and not have other people put words in their mouth. No one is saying that they don’t mind Saddam’s rule, but it is possible that for most people the bombing presents a more significant near-term threat than Saddam does. I, for one, will not stand here and say the Iraqi’s want us to go to war without any proof. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/151 "2003-03-19T19:51:37Z")
[Sure](http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,399714,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/152 "2003-03-19T22:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _from **Shodan** :_ > > **xenonphon41** - > > The only one of the “lies” you cited that has not been refuted by **zigaretten** is the Nigerian uranium connection, and that seems to have been an intelligence failure rather than a lie. Perhaps a nitpick, but I don’t want you to turn into **elucidator** , who spouts those kind of accusations like a creationist does references to Piltdown man. Sorry for the late response; I’ve been busy. I suspect that **zigaretten** has, on more than one occasion, provided spirited _disagreement_ and creative _interpretation_ regarding charges of duplicity on the part of the Bushies, rather than any actual _refutation_ of those charges, but I would be pleased if you could provide links. As far as becoming **elucidator** , I have to say I’m not capable of his level of inventive humor as a weapon against [right wing] ideological blindness; my creativity lies more in the realms of invective, sarcasm and priggish judgementalism (hence, the recitation of Bush’s lies); just consider me the Jeff to **'luce** ’s Mutt. But thanks for the kind thought! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/153 "2003-03-20T05:15:34Z")
from Weirddave: > [@](#): > > Since I agree that the original question-“How exactly will leaving Saddam in power promote peace and justice in Iraq?”- is somewhat loaded, I’ll try to phrase it in a more useful way. How will the cause of peace and justice be served without removing Saddam by force, AND, how will your alternative(to force) work where 12 years of diplomacy have failed? I think that the inspectors should have been allowed to continue what they were doing. Blix’s reports were not all negative about what was happening there. Since we were not in imminent danger of attack from Iraq, and since the citizens of the countries that are our allies are opposed to the war, and since our nation is deeply divided about going to war, we should have waited for the United Nations to stand with us before going to war. I will probably always be opposed to war, but I wouldn’t have been so vocal about my opposition if the diplomatic process had been allowed to play itself out. I am aware, however, that there is so much that I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/154 "2003-03-20T10:27:35Z")
I just posted this quote in another thread, but I think it is appropriate here. How do you conduct diplomacy with people who feel this way? > [@](#): > > According to a 1988 audiotape of a meeting of leading Iraqi officials published by Human Rights Watch, al-Majid [Saddam’s son, “Chemical Ali”] vowed to use chemical weapons against the Kurds, saying: > > "I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community? Fuck them! the international community, and those who listen to them! > > “I will not attack them with chemicals just one day, but I will continue to attack them with chemicals for fifteen days.” [http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/01/iraq0117.htm](http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/01/iraq0117.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/155 "2003-03-20T10:34:22Z")
Wow. He speaks pretty good english. And he doesn’t mind speaking on tape! I’ll tell you, if our goal is to protect the people of this region from atrocities committed by their countrymen, we are gonna rack up some serious frequent flyer miles going back every couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/156 "2003-03-20T11:36:12Z")
Maybe if you were there, you would wish it would stop. But then again, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144/157 "2003-03-20T12:42:24Z")
If I was there, I sure would. I wish it would stop from way over here. But I do not believe that Bush cares about these things. I believe he cares about diverting our attention from a bad economy (which war will not help) and manipulating oil prices and new drilling in places they can’t drill right now. And I believe it will be a very short amount of time before these heinous crimes against humanity continue with a new face, without a peep from Bush. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-pits-peace-protester-on-radio/162144.md?page=7)