# Iraqi rat-hole keeps getting deeper, and deeper - Any reasonable chance for victory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652 "2006-09-29T20:19:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/101 "2006-10-03T21:57:19Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Would you kill yourself before condemning to death the American soldiers you believe deserve it, if you had the power to condemn them? [/quote] Of course not; they _do_ deserve it. [QUOTE=RTFirefly] What does that mean? You seem to consider yourself more heroic, in this regard, than the vast majority of people now alive. [/QUOTE] It means that I’m not going to dedicate my life to charity, or crawl on broken glass to save someone; _that’s_ heroic. I am unwilling to murder upon orders; if that means I’m more heroic than most people, it doesn’t mean I’m all that noble, but that most people are amoral. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/102 "2006-10-03T22:05:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] As I’ve said elsewhere, I’d kill myself before doing what they have done. I don’t regard myself as especially heroic. Besides, they can also desert, or go to prison, or do other things that are easier on them than killing is on their victims. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: -XT ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/103 "2006-10-03T23:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] :rolleyes: -XT [/QUOTE] Eloquent and detailed as always. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/104 "2006-10-03T23:40:04Z")
Can someone direct me to a blog by a US/Coalition soldier where they talk about what went on when they realised there were no WMD. And there were orders to torture. And Iraq was in no way or form any threat to the US. And the iraqis had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. And there was no sheltering and harbouring of ‘terrorists’. Because I’m trying real hard to sympathise with the US soldier here. But all I’ve heard over the years are 2 things: - Yahoo we’re the best let’s kill ragheads. - Resounding fucking silence and no , “yes the Liberals had it right and my leadership are a bagload of scum-sucking liars.” As you may imagine these charming dialogues have coloured my impressions somewhat. Now I’m all open to believe there is some shred of worthiness to be found in your serving US soldier in Iraq. All open. What I want to see is some evidence. Too much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/105 "2006-10-04T00:38:55Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Eloquent and detailed as always. [/QUOTE] This not being the Pit, not much I could say. Oh wait! [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390796) ya go… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/106 "2006-10-04T13:20:29Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I _support_ the killing of American soldiers in Iraq, as I believe they fight for an evil man and an evil cause. I’d be perfectly happy if the Iraqis managed to kill all of them somehow. [/QUOTE] Hmmm… has anybody ever seen Der Trihs and Phred Phelps at the same time? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/107 "2006-10-04T14:33:21Z")
Well, for those few who have not fallen beneath the withering gaze of DT’s wishes - Good News Everybody. [GOP Sets Up fund for Victory Parade](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/04/MNGF3LHPGN1.DTL) > [@](#): > > Even as the Bush administration urges Americans to stay the course in Iraq, Republicans in Congress have put down a quiet marker in the apparent hope that V-I Day might be only months away. > > Tucked away in fine print in the military spending bill for this past year was a lump sum of $20 million to pay for a celebration in the nation’s capital “for commemoration of success” in Iraq and Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > The original legislation empowered the president to designate “a day of celebration” to commemorate the success of the armed forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, and to “issue a proclamation calling on the people of the United States to observe that day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.” The good news? With compound interest this little nest egg should see world poverty and the national debt taken care of. Shame no-one had the foresight to set up a Victory in Vietnam or the War on Drugs Has Been Won fund. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/108 "2006-10-04T15:03:48Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] [GOP Sets Up fund for Victory Parade](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/04/MNGF3LHPGN1.DTL) [/QUOTE] Maybe they’ll have it on an aircraft carrier. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/109 "2006-10-04T15:08:34Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Maybe they’ll have it on an aircraft carrier. [/QUOTE] Nah - aircraft carriers would have gone the way of Ironclads by then. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/110 "2006-10-04T15:13:59Z")
Frontline had a program on Afghanistan yesterday. The Talliban is coming back and is backed by it’s neighbors. We have no friends there. We are doomed. Declare victory over te Bathists and bring our troops home in 60 days. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/111 "2006-10-04T20:00:30Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Of course not; they _do_ deserve it. [/QUOTE] So, you’d condemn to death the American soldiers who’ve served in Iraq, if you could? Nothing like answering the violent radicalism of the far right with the violent radicalism of a (fortunately essentially nonexistent) far left. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/112 "2006-10-04T20:56:05Z")
That’s not “far left”. _ **I’m** _ far left. That’s nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/113 "2006-10-04T21:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] That’s not “far left”. _ **I’m** _ far left. That’s nuts. [/QUOTE] Why is wishing for the destruction of an invading army “nuts” ? Is it because it’s an _American_ invading army ? If the Iraqis managed to kill them and free their country, would that make them “nuts” ? If we did the same to a country that conquered us, would _we_ be “nuts” ? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/114 "2006-10-04T21:52:30Z")
[Iraq pulls police brigade out of service](http://24hour.startribune.com/24hour/world/story/3388211p-12458981c.html) > [@](#): > > Iraqi authorities for the first time pulled a brigade of about 700 policemen out of service Wednesday for investigation of suspected ties to death squads, aiming to signal the government’s seriousness in cleansing Baghdad of sectarian violence. > … > The brigade was responsible for a region of northeast Baghdad where gunmen on Sunday kidnapped 24 workers from a frozen food factory. Hours later, the bodies of seven of the workers were found dumped in a district miles away. Sunni politicians have said all those who were kidnapped were Sunnis; the region has a mixed population with a slight Shiite majority. > … > The top U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell, said the police brigade in the area had been ordered to stand down and was undergoing retraining. He said some were being investigated and that any found to have militia ties would be removed. Quis custodiet custodes ipsos? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/115 "2006-10-04T21:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Why is wishing for the destruction of an invading army “nuts” ? Is it because it’s an _American_ invading army ? If the Iraqis managed to kill them and free their country, would that make them “nuts” ? If we did the same to a country that conquered us, would _we_ be “nuts” ? [/QUOTE] You’re confusing ‘kill or be killed’ with ‘sitting in omnipotent judgment’. That the people of a nation would fight off an army invading _them_, tooth and nail, is perfectly rational, even though rationality would have little to do with their visceral response. That you would, from your safe perch, be willing to put to death every last member of that army, is no less than sociopathic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652/116 "2006-10-04T22:09:13Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] That you would, from your safe perch, be willing to put to death every last member of that army, is no less than sociopathic. [/QUOTE] I think you make this more ethically complicated than it is. _We_ invaded _them_, without provocation, nor were we in danger from them. We have wrecked their country, slaughtered them by the tens of thousands, let loose the fanatics and criminals among them to run rampant, and in general done a good job of turning Iraq into Hell. I am condemning our soldiers in Iraq because of what they have _done._ Not soldiers in general, not even all American soldiers - just the ones _in Iraq_. By being there, by participating in or enabling our brutality and murder and destructing, they condemn themselves. Do you think it’s wrong to condemn everyone in Al Qaeda for 9-11 as well ? Should all Stalinists be blamed for the gulags, all Nazis for the camps ? Yes, just as all our soldiers in Iraq deserve blame for what has been done there. “Just following orders” is not an excuse. Nor do I think that it’s all that hard to grasp that the mass murder of innocents is _bad_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqi-rat-hole-keeps-getting-deeper-and-deeper-any-reasonable-chance-for-victory/374652.md?page=5)