# Iraqis Say "Bugger Off!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380 "2006-09-27T16:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/1 "2006-09-27T16:09:01Z")
[http://pipa.org/](http://pipa.org/) > [@](#): > > …A large majority of Iraqis–71%–say they would like the Iraqi government to ask for US-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less. Given four options, 37 percent take the position that they would like US-led forces withdrawn “within six months,” while another 34 percent opt for “gradually withdraw[ing] US-led forces according to a one-year timeline.” > > – Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent (27% strongly, 34% somewhat). This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks. > > – More broadly, 79 percent of Iraqis say that the US is having a negative influence on the situation in Iraq, with just 14 percent saying that it is having a positive influence… (quotes from ThinkProgress abstract of poll, link is to original source) If an referendum were held tomorrow (if such were _possible_ tomorrow, Iraqis would dip their finger in purple ink and flip us off. They don’t want us there, we don’t want to be there, and there we are. WTF? No, seriously, WTF? Please make special note of that second statistic: the number of Iraqis who _support_ attacks on US troops. Not shocked and sickened, not ambivalent, _support!_ Jesus fuck a shit souffle! (Exception: there is considerable evidence that the Kurds just flat love us half to death. I suspect they hope we will protect them from our allies, the Turks, and our enemies, the Iranians. Whether this reflects any real admiration I leave to the reader’s judgement…) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/2 "2006-09-27T16:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] (Exception: there is considerable evidence that the Kurds just flat love us half to death. I suspect they hope we will protect them from our allies, the Turks, and our enemies, the Iranians. Whether this reflects any real admiration I leave to the reader’s judgement…) [/QUOTE] Heaven help the Kurds, then, given our record in using and abandoning pawns. Just ask the [Hmong.](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17252) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/3 "2006-09-27T16:30:01Z")
Why does this ‘news’ shock you? Why is it surprising? Was there ever a country that was happy to be invaded and occupied…especially when such shit was on going? I’m assuming you feel that since the majority of Iraqi’s feel that we should pack up and leave, that we should. I agree. Of course, when it all goes tits up, I’m sure it will be cold comfort to those going in the fire (bit of a mixed metaphore there, sorry), but if its what they want I say give it to em. -XT ---
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/4 "2006-09-27T16:32:45Z")
Overstaying a rather lukewarm (to be charitable) welcome. No surprises there. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/5 "2006-09-27T16:36:56Z")
Sounds good enough for me. Let’s bring em home already. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/6 "2006-09-27T16:38:50Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Heaven help the Kurds, then, given our record in using and abandoning pawns. Just ask the [Hmong.](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17252) [/QUOTE] Hmong, hell. Just ask the Kurds that were left high and dry after Gulf War I: The One Where the US didn’t Fuck Up. And while I still think that it falls to the US to fix most (frankly, **some** would be kinda nice) of the things that we fucked up before we skate, I’m also not at all surprised that the Iraqis view us as an occupying force (because there’s been nothing to dissuade that view, you damn betcha) and want us to leave. Turn the tables and ask how long the average American would tolerate a force that moved in and tortured even one person before they took up arms and started demanding that said force get the hell out. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/7 "2006-09-27T16:41:53Z")
Gee, and so many other countries welcome invaders who kill 30k+ of their civilian countrymen. What the hell is wrong with these Iraqis, don’t they like Democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/8 "2006-09-28T01:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] … (Exception: there is considerable evidence that the Kurds just flat love us half to death. I suspect they hope we will protect them from our allies, the Turks, and our enemies, the Iranians. Whether this reflects any real admiration I leave to the reader’s judgement…) [/QUOTE] Kurdish history goes like this: Starting from about 1920 western forces promise big, then ditch them in the muck at the first whiff of petroleum. Rinse and repeat. There isn’t a lot of love there. Rather the Kurds likely are pleased that the US is backed into a corner where it has little choice but to prop up whatever stability there is in the former Iraq. (Am I the first to use that phrase?) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/9 "2006-09-28T03:29:26Z")
I find it rather amusing how conservatives crow about the “will of the people” being an all important value when the will of the people is on their side (even if the margin is 51% to 49% in their favor) and how absolutely nothing should interfere (especially not those evil Supreme Court Justices who impose sodomy on us against our wills). But yet here we are in Iraq, arrogantly imposing our will on people who very clearly don’t want us to be there. Curious. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/10 "2006-09-28T04:03:32Z")
But Bush said if we leave Iraq, the terrorists will follow us. Hmmmmm. I know! Let’s redeploy to Antarctica! We could win the War on Terror in about three weeks! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/11 "2006-09-28T04:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] …Curious. [/QUOTE] Heard that explained as because the Iraqis are still in Saddam-mode, and distrust poll-takers and that ilk. Which would mean that the polls would not guage the Iraqis true feelings. Why, exactly, they should tell a pollster that they _don’t_ want Americans there when they _do_ what not explained. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/12 "2006-09-28T04:18:43Z")
Actually, **Rufus** , the line is that they will _come_ to America, not necessarily _follow_ us here. They wouldn’t be dumb enough to follow us to Anarctica, there being no chance whatever of blending in amongst the population, being penguins. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/13 "2006-09-28T04:22:03Z")
I suppose things could get worse for ordinary Iraqis, in fact once the Americans leave things probably will, but given current circumstances, one can understand if a majority of those polled find that the US presence has been rather less than useful to them. Sorry, I guess I don’t have an opposing position for debate. I’d like to see more democracies in the Middle East as much as the next guy, but I really don’t see the US plan, such as it is, working any better five years from now than it does at present. If that’s the case, pull 'em out now, pull’em out later, it doesn’t matter all that much. Plenty more blood will be shed in either case. My only question for now is, will anyone from this administration ever be held accountable for the increasingly pointless mess we’ve made? ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/14 "2006-09-28T04:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Actually, **Rufus** , the line is that they will _come_ to America, not necessarily _follow_ us here. They wouldn’t be dumb enough to follow us to Anarctica, there being no chance whatever of blending in amongst the population, being penguins. [/QUOTE] Well: “Whatever mistakes have been made in Iraq, the worst mistake would be to think that if we pulled out, the terrorists would leave us alone. They will not leave us alone. They will follow us.” - George W. Bush, 09/11/06 He didn’t say where they will follow us. As for the terrorists not being dumb, why are they fighting armed and armored troops in Iraq when they could be fighting soccer moms in Peoria? I mean, if they’re too dumb to find America without following the troops home, who’s to say they wouldn’t follow the troops anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/15 "2006-09-28T05:13:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Kurdish history goes like this: Starting from about 1920 western forces promise big, then ditch them in the muck at the first whiff of petroleum. Rinse and repeat. There isn’t a lot of love there. Rather the Kurds likely are pleased that the US is backed into a corner where it has little choice but to prop up whatever stability there is in the former Iraq. (Am I the first to use that phrase?) [/QUOTE] The Kurds will actually come out of this pretty well for once. They have taken advantage of the chaos to quietly build their own nation (not that Turkey and Iran haven’t noticed). It is clear that their strategy is to establish stability and the Kurds will have their own country by default when the rest of Iraq just sort of melts away. Key to this, though, is the oil rich and contested city of Kirkuk. In order for Kurdistan to be viable, it has to have the income generated by the oil fields of Kirkuk, but there is a sizeable Sunni Arab population that will try to stop them. It will be a nasty front in the civil war. When you go from Baghdad to Kurdistan the transition is jarring. In Kurdistan you can go out to dinner, go for a walk, and it is well maintained and clean. They have their own flag and it is actually illegal to fly the Iraqi national flag. They also have their own entry visa which is not recognized by the government of Iraq which means if you enter the country via Kurdistan and you don’t get an entry visa later from the government of Iraq, you are in the country illegally. I have yet to hear an explanation for why we are here and I sincerely would like to hear a supporter of this administration explain it, with identifiable benchmarks for success. Preferrably, I would like one of these Bush supporters to fly here to Baghdad, get in a taxi and come to my apartment and explain it to me in person. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/16 "2006-09-28T05:19:55Z")
One more statistic not mentioned in the OP (quoted from Wash Post article reprinted in the Mercury News.) > [@](#): > > By large margins, though, Iraqis believed that the U.S. government would refuse the request [to leave], with 77 percent of those polled saying the United States intends to keep permanent military bases in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/17 "2006-09-28T05:28:28Z")
[QUOTE=madmonk28] The Kurds will actually come out of this pretty well for once. They have taken advantage of the chaos to quietly build their own nation (not that Turkey and Iran haven’t noticed). It is clear that their strategy is to establish stability and the Kurds will have their own country by default when the rest of Iraq just sort of melts away. Key to this, though, is the oil rich and contested city of Kirkuk. In order for Kurdistan to be viable, it has to have the income generated by the oil fields of Kirkuk, but there is a sizeable Sunni Arab population that will try to stop them. It will be a nasty front in the civil war. When you go from Baghdad to Kurdistan the transition is jarring. In Kurdistan you can go out to dinner, go for a walk, and it is well maintained and clean. They have their own flag and it is actually illegal to fly the Iraqi national flag. They also have their own entry visa which is not recognized by the government of Iraq which means if you enter the country via Kurdistan and you don’t get an entry visa later from the government of Iraq, you are in the country illegally. [/QUOTE] Well I’m pleased to hear this, mostly because it seems I have coined “former Iraq” but partly because it seems the Kurds may finally be getting a break. Leaving aside Iran and the coming battles for Kirkuk, the question is what the US can offer Turkey, to keep them from spoiling an independent Kurdistan. Turkey has been clear in its opposition for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/18 "2006-09-28T05:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=Rufus Xavier] As for the terrorists not being dumb, why are they fighting armed and armored troops in Iraq when they could be fighting soccer moms in Peoria? [/QUOTE] First, they are easier to get to, and a soldier isn’t that much harder to kill from ambush than anyone else. Second, killing American soldiers in Iraq isn’t terrorism, it’s guerilla warfare. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/19 "2006-09-28T06:01:40Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] First, they are easier to get to, and a soldier isn’t that much harder to kill from ambush than anyone else. Second, killing American soldiers in Iraq isn’t terrorism, it’s guerilla warfare. [/QUOTE] It’s also fucking cowardice. IMHO the Iraqis are a shower of ingrates. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/20 "2006-09-28T06:20:32Z")
Yeah, people are funny that way, gratitude. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380.md?page=2)