# Iraqis Say "Bugger Off!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380 "2006-09-27T16:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/21 "2006-09-28T06:45:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Well I’m pleased to hear this, mostly because it seems I have coined “former Iraq” but partly because it seems the Kurds may finally be getting a break. Leaving aside Iran and the coming battles for Kirkuk, the question is what the US can offer Turkey, to keep them from spoiling an independent Kurdistan. Turkey has been clear in its opposition for a while. [/QUOTE] Well, the US has really been pushing hard for Turkey to enter the EU, which actually might be hurting Turkey’s chances given the US’ standing in the world. Iran has been lobbing shells into Kurdistan and Turkey had sent some special forces into Kurdistan to destablize the region, but they were caught by US special forces. This incident is the basis for a very popular anti-American movie in Turkey (the Wolves of Iraq). > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Rufus Xavier > As for the terrorists not being dumb, why are they fighting armed and armored troops in Iraq when they could be fighting soccer moms in Peoria? That’s assuming that they have any interest in killing soccer moms. It is clear that the majority of the fighters killing US troops are doing so because we have invaded and now occupy their country. Had we not invaded, the majority of these fighters would have no interest in killing Americans. There seems to be a misconception that there are a finite number of terrorists and when we kill the last one, we are done. But new terrorists (or insurgents, or whatever you want to call them) are made every day. They are made when we round up all the men between the ages of 16-50 and send them to Abu Ghraib, which happened in 2003 and 2004. Terrorists are made when a scared 18 year old US soldier slaughters a family in a car that gets too close to his convoy (which has happened to people I know here). ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/22 "2006-09-28T06:48:32Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] It’s also fucking cowardice. [/quote] Attacking heavily armed soldiers instead of soccer mums is cowardice? How you do figure that, exactly? > [@](#): > > IMHO the Iraqis are a shower of ingrates. You haven’t given them anything to be grateful for. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/23 "2006-09-28T07:04:17Z")
The only reason they want us to leave is because they ran out of candy and flowers to shower us with. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/24 "2006-09-28T07:14:26Z")
Here is a link to a story in the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/23/AR2006072300495.html) about some of the mistakes the US made here. It details one unit that would arrest every male in a town between the ages of 16 and 60 and send them to Abu Ghraib where they would then be recruited and trained by insurgents already doing time. In my experience, almost every Iraqi I know says things were better under Saddam. And they aren’t saying things were good then, they hated Saddam (a lot of them do anyway), but you could go to the store, you could go outside of your house, there was electricity and working hospitals. We’ve taken a nation where the people were already suffering and made it much much worse and now we’re just going to kind of wander off and ask “why do they hate us?” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/25 "2006-09-28T07:43:46Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] It’s also fucking cowardice. IMHO the Iraqis are a shower of ingrates. [/QUOTE] Fighting ruthless, brutal enemy soldiers is not cowardice. We are their invaders and conquerers, we are their _enemies_. It is the clear duty of the Iraqis to kill as many foreign soldiers as they can. The last thing they owe us is gratitude; as **madmonk28** pointed out, we are the people who have managed to make Saddam’s reign the “good old days”. They owe us hatred and contempt, not gratitude. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/26 "2006-09-28T09:01:58Z")
\*\* Der Trihs\*\* They were fucking grateful enough when US troops were pulling down those statues of Hussein. Don’t talk to me about ruthless brutal enemy soldiers, talk about the torture chambers that Hussein had, talk to me about the thousands of people that just vanished under that pricks despotic rule, those were the good old days I guess. Talk to me about those days or don’t talk to me at all. In any event I have you pegged as anti American every fucking thing so don’t talk to me EVER. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/27 "2006-09-28T09:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] \*\* Der Trihs\*\* They were fucking grateful enough when US troops were pulling down those statues of Hussein. [/quote] :rolleyes: Ah, the famous staged photograph of them pulling down that statue. That was exposed as propaganda years ago. [QUOTE=chowder] Don’t talk to me about ruthless brutal enemy soldiers, talk about the torture chambers that Hussein had, talk to me about the thousands of people that just vanished under that pricks despotic rule, those were the good old days I guess. [/quote] Compared to what we have turned Iraq into, yes. Certainly it was better for women; they could walk the streets without burkhas, get an education and a job and so forth; right away that’s 50% of the population better off under Saddam. As for torture chambers and people vanishing, we are torturing and killing them, and so are the various factions; the difference is Saddam typically left you alone if you kept your head down. Nowadays there is no safety. The economy of course was better under him. [QUOTE=chowder] In any event I have you pegged as anti American every fucking thing so don’t talk to me EVER. [/QUOTE] Did this become the **chowder** message board when I wasn’t looking ? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/28 "2006-09-28T09:20:11Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] \*\* Der Trihs\*\* They were fucking grateful enough when US troops were pulling down those statues of Hussein… [/QUOTE] That is an important point. It was US troops pulling down the statue, not Iraqis. While the image was evocative of the scenes from Eastern Europe of the statues of Lenin coming down there is a major difference: Eastern Europeans pulled down the statues of Lenin. They did it themselves and had a history of advocating for democratic change. Poland, for example, has a long history of social elements aspiring towards democracy dating back to at least the age of reason. It wasn’t imposed from outside. I don’t agree with **Der Trihs** characterization of US troops as being ruthless. That certainly hasn’t been my observation of the behavior of US troops (especially as compared to the behavior of troops from other nations I have seen in Kosovo, Afghanistan and elewhere), although there certainly have been troubling behavior by some troops and even units. I think any occupying military that cannot communicate with the populace, doesn’t understand the culture and is in the middle of a nasty insurgency is going to get its self in trouble and take actions that engender increased hostility. All of this was predictable and indeed elements from within the US government and outside of the government tried to warn the administration and the American public. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/29 "2006-09-28T09:30:44Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] \*\* Der Trihs\*\* They were fucking grateful enough when US troops were pulling down those statues of Hussein. Don’t talk to me about ruthless brutal enemy soldiers, talk about the torture chambers that Hussein had, talk to me about the thousands of people that just vanished under that pricks despotic rule, those were the good old days I guess. Talk to me about those days or don’t talk to me at all. In any event I have you pegged as anti American every fucking thing so don’t talk to me EVER. [/QUOTE] [Torture now worse than under saddam](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm) > [@](#): > > Torture may be worse now in Iraq than under former leader Saddam Hussein, the UN’s chief anti-torture expert says. > > Manfred Nowak said the situation in Iraq was “out of control”, with abuses being committed by security forces, militia groups and anti-US insurgents. > > Bodies found in the Baghdad morgue “often bear signs of severe torture”, said the human rights office of the UN Assistance Mission in Iraq in a report. > [@](#): > > The UN report says detainees’ bodies often show signs of beating using electrical cables, wounds in heads and genitals, broken legs and hands, electric and cigarette burns. > > Bodies found at the Baghdad mortuary “often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances”. > > Many bodies have missing skin, broken bones, back, hands and legs, missing eyes, missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails, the UN report says. > > Victims come from prisons run by US-led multinational forces as well as by the ministries of interior and defence and private militias, the report said. [Iraq War Dead](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4525412.stm) > [@](#): > > The number of civilians reported to have been killed during the Iraq war and subsequent military presence is being recorded by the campaign group Iraq Body Count. > > On 15 September 2006 it put the total number of civilian dead at 40,775 to 45,559 and the number of police dead at 2,437 [UN Civilian Death Toll Rises](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2472188) > [@](#): > > The number of Iraqi civilians killed in July and August hit 6,599, a record-high number that is far greater than initial estimates suggested, the United Nations said Wednesday. > > The report from the U.N. Assistance Mission in Iraq’s Human Rights office highlighted the sectarian crisis gripping the country, offering a grim assessment across a range of indicators worrying evidence of torture, unlawful detentions, growth of sectarian militias and death squads, and a rise in “honor killings” of women. > [@](#): > > On other issues, the report painted a similarly grim picture. It said about 300,000 people had been displaced in Iraq since the bombing of a shrine in Samarra in February, and reported a rise in honor killings against women. > > The U.N. has also received several reports of Iraqi journalists facing prosecution for their reporting. In one case, for example, three reporters working for a newspaper faced trial for articles criticizing a regional government and accusing police and the judicial system there of violating basic human rights. > > The report said more than 35,000 Iraqis were under detention, including 13,571 by multinational forces. That represents a 28 percent increase over the number at the end of June, it said. > > The U.N. special rapporteur has received allegations of torture in prisons run by Iraq’s interior and defense ministries, as well as ones under multinational control. And while we are on the subject of cowards [US raid and air strike kills 8 people](http://www.juancole.com/) > [@](#): > > BAQUBA - A U.S. raid and air strike killed eight people [four of them women], including seven members of one family , and wounded two others in Baquba, 65 km (40 miles) northeast of Baghdad, the U.S. military and police said. The U.S. said the four men in the family of seven were suspected of having links to al Qaeda. > [@](#): > > "A young girl said, weeping, 'I was inside preparing the meal to break the Ramadan fast. I heard explosions and gunfire, and I ran. When I returned, I found all of my family killed. My father, four women and three men. All of them, including my brother and his pregnant wife. All hail our great heroes. Stand back and admire the courage it takes to slay women and children from 20,000 feet just because you ‘suspect’ some men in the family of having links to al Qaeda. Yea - go, friggin’ us. And don’t you dare even think about deploying the ‘at least we aren’t as bad as Saddam’ defence. That lost its wings here a long, long time ago, apart from it being a metric no decent human being would hold as acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/30 "2006-09-28T09:51:30Z")
Think on this **Der Trihs** Whenever a disaster strikes whether natural or man made which is the first country to offer aid and assistance? You got the USA!! You don’t see hordes of people dancing for joy in the streets of America because some distant country has hit hard times…no you don’t. However let something happen to the USA or any of her allies and what do we get? Fucking dipsticks crawling out burning flags, ululating and screaming with happiness because of this…think 9/11 and 7/7. As for that photo being staged…are you nuts or what? propaganda? I assume you have a cite for this. Did I mention mass graves in my earlier post?. Do you not think if the Iraqis had just left the USA and her Allies to get on with the business of rebuilding the country instead of hampering them at every possible opportunity then things MAY just be a bit better…MAY even be a whole lot better. **TORTURE** SH did this on a massive scale and whilst admitting that allied troops have been found guilty of the same crime it is nothing compared. It does not excuse the allied troops, they should suffer all the penalties of law, both civil and military. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/31 "2006-09-28T09:56:44Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Whenever a disaster strikes whether natural or man made which is the first country to offer aid and assistance? [/QUOTE] It’s late. **Ghostbusters** isn’t a country, is it? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/32 "2006-09-28T10:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] T As for that photo being staged…are you nuts or what? propaganda? I assume you have a cite for this. [/QUOTE] [Armyreport confirms statue toppling staged](http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/641) > [@](#): > > Army report confirms Psy-ops staged Saddam statue toppling. > > An internal Army study of the war in Iraq has confirmed that the infamous toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in central Baghdad on April 9, 2003 was stage-managed by American troops and not a spontaneous reaction by Iraqis. According to the study, a Marine colonel first decided to topple the statue, and an Army psychological operations unit turned the event into a propaganda moment. That you don’t know this - a fact so well known as not to be in dispute since practically the moment it happens - disqualifies you from expressing any opinion on the matter of Iraq and absolves all of us from paying any attention to your uninformed ranting. I draw your attention to the motto of this board which reads; ‘Fighting’, not Displaying’ Ignorance since … ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/33 "2006-09-28T10:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] [Armyreport confirms statue toppling staged](http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/641) That you don’t know this - a fact so well known as not to be in dispute since practically the moment it happens - disqualifies you from expressing any opinion on the matter of Iraq and absolves all of us from paying any attention to your uninformed ranting. I draw your attention to the motto of this board which reads; ‘Fighting’, not Displaying’ Ignorance since … [/QUOTE] My My aint you the clever budgie. I’ll bet your parents are really proud of you ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/34 "2006-09-28T10:46:30Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] [Armyreport confirms statue toppling staged](http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/641) That you don’t know this - a fact so well known as not to be in dispute since practically the moment it happens - disqualifies you from expressing any opinion on the matter of Iraq and absolves all of us from paying any attention to your uninformed ranting. I draw your attention to the motto of this board which reads; ‘Fighting’, not Displaying’ Ignorance since … [/QUOTE] Oh I almost forgot…up yours sunshine ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/35 "2006-09-28T11:28:02Z")
chowder, I see two acceptable responses to being proven wrong. The first is to say something like “Oh golly, you are right and I was wrong.” The second is to find more evidence to support your opinion. “Up yours sunshine” is neither. Most Iraqis want the US out. I don’t blame them. But I think we need to figure out a strategy to do so that minimizes the carnage. Maybe it’s simply pulling out. Maybe it’s partitioning the country. As bad as it was to go in without thinking, it might be worse to go out without thinking. I think the White House should be looking for an exit strategy rather than a victory strategy, but that might have to wait until a grown up is in charge. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/36 "2006-09-28T11:40:40Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Oh I almost forgot…up yours sunshine [/QUOTE] Cutting. My point stand that coming to GD, rather than the Pit, to impress us with your grasp of a subject requires you to actually know something about the subject under discussion. Which by your own words you have revealed yourself to not have. If you want to insult and berate those of us who have turned out to be right all along about Iraq, the place for that is the Pit, not GD. The fact of the matter is that your view of Iraq is incorrect and has been demonstrated to be so. Torture is now worse than Saddam, the death toll is immense and continues to rise, UK and US troops are killing innocent people on the merest suspicion that someone near them may be dodgy and the Iraqi people want us out. If you have something other than rants to bring to the table, by all means do so. which means arguments backed up by cited facts. Otherwisse the correct forum is The Pit. By every standard from levels of violence, torture, the provision of services, death tolls, to as the recent report shows, increasing the threat of terrorism our intervention has made Iraq a worse place. And as the cited poll shows the percentage of iraqi’s who think overthrowing Saddam was worth it has fallen from 77% to 61% since January of this year. > [@](#): > > A majority of Iraqis (61%) still believe that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth the hardships they might have suffered, but this is down from the 77 percent who said this in January. Among Shias, the majority saying that was worth it has slipped from 98 percent to 75 percent, while among the Kurds it has dropped from 91 percent to 81 percent. The number of Sunnis saying it was not worth it has drifted upward from 83 percent to 89 percent, with only 11 percent saying that it was worth it. And now The President of The Green Zone advocates building a moat around Baghdad, which as an informed commentator I’m sure you need no cite for. When things have got so bad you have to think about building a moat around one of the largest cities in the world I submit the possibility that things may not actually be going very well, for your erudite consideration. But, no doubt once the moat is built and it is fully stocked with sharks with laser beams on their head, everything will be just fine. Shall we take another look at just how great everything is going? Iraq’s Anbar province out of US control [Classified report by senior military intelligence officer in Iraq concludes prospects are dim for securing Anbar province.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/10/AR2006091001204.html?nav=rss_nation) > [@](#): > > The chief of intelligence for the Marine Corps in Iraq recently filed an unusual secret report concluding that the prospects for securing that country’s western Anbar province are dim and that there is almost nothing the U.S. military can do to improve the political and social situation there, said several military officers and intelligence officials familiar with its contents. > > The officials described Col. Pete Devlin’s classified assessment of the dire state of Anbar as the first time that a senior U.S. military officer has filed so negative a report from Iraq. > [@](#): > > Devlin reports that there are no functioning Iraqi government institutions in Anbar, leaving a vacuum that has been filled by the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq, which has become the province’s most significant political force, said the Army officer, who has read the report. If people like Der Tris are angry they have every right to be angry. That anger is based on an understanding of what is going on backed up by the facts. Facts such as these: [Iraq refugees overwhelm Syria](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58648-2005Feb2.html) > [@](#): > > Syrian officials say 700,000 Iraqis from various ethnic, religious and economic backgrounds have arrived since the U.S.-led invasion, far more than in any other country in the region. The flow has spiked in the past four months. > > The first trickle of wealthy Iraqis, who U.S. officials say may now be helping finance the insurgency, has been followed by a larger wave of mostly Shiite Muslims and Christians – groups targeted by the daily violence. U.N. officials say many are doctors, professors, business owners and recent college graduates, the intellectual core that officials in Washington hoped would rebuild Iraq. As they settle in the old stone buildings of the Christian quarter here and in the southern slums of Damascus 185 miles to the south, the enclaves are experiencing soaring rents, overcrowded schools, rising crime and health problems. > > “We cannot continue like this,” said Abdelhamid Ouali, the representative for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees in Syria. “The situation is terrible, and we are obliged to do something.” And this was 2005. Want to bet if things have gotten better or worse? Hey - why not look at how great things are for women? [For women, the war is just beginning](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article717570.ece) > [@](#): > > The women of Basra have disappeared. Three years after the US-led invasion of Iraq, women’s secular freedoms - once the envy of women across the Middle East - have been snatched away because militant Islam is rising across the country. > > Across Iraq, a bloody and relentless oppression of women has taken hold. Many women had their heads shaved for refusing to wear a scarf or have been stoned in the street for wearing make-up. Others have been kidnapped and murdered for crimes that are being labelled simply as “inappropriate behaviour”. The insurrection against the fragile and barely functioning state has left the country prey to extremists whose notion of freedom does not extend to women. You want to bring something to the debating table that factually justifies your emotional position then do it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/37 "2006-09-28T13:44:45Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] I draw your attention to the motto of this board which reads; ‘Fighting’, not Displaying’ Ignorance since … [/QUOTE] Well, how can it show its effectiveness without a “Before” exhibit? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/38 "2006-09-28T13:57:09Z")
OK I was wrong and I apologise for my ill judged remarks. **tagos** states my view of Iraq is wrong but makes no reply to the points raised in my earlier post. An oversight maybe? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/39 "2006-09-28T14:47:08Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Oh I almost forgot…up yours sunshine [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=chowder] OK I was wrong and I apologise for my ill judged remarks. [/QUOTE] Noted: but do not do this again, outside the **Pit**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/40 "2006-09-28T14:47:22Z")
People tend to smear their views of pre war Iraq and Afghanistan. Afghanistan was under Taliban rule and oppressed women. In Iraq over 50 % of the college students were women and half the professional positions were held by women. Most wore western style clothes. Sadaam was a prick but the day to day life ws not like the Taliban rule. This info comes from blogs by Iraqis who have lived their lives there.I am sure a politician who pissed off Sadaam would have a short shelf life but business and the srreets were safe. The blogs also discribe the horror of living there now.They get it from all directions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380.md?page=3)