# Iraqis Say "Bugger Off!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380 "2006-09-27T16:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/41 "2006-09-28T14:50:39Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] It’s also fucking cowardice. [/quote] WTF? Fighting the mightest fighting force the world’s ever seen with rusty rifles and improvised bombs, all the while keeping them, at the very least, at a standstill, is actually corageous as all hell. Don’t believe me? YOU try it. > [@](#): > > IMHO the Iraqis are a shower of ingrates. I can’t tell you my opinion of you in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/42 "2006-09-28T14:53:40Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] As for that photo being staged…are you nuts or what? propaganda? I assume you have a cite for this. [/QUOTE] [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm) [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm) > **[Saddam Statue Scene Staged](https://www.twf.org/News/Y2003/0411-Statue.html)** > **[The Pulling of the Statue was a Staged Media Event](https://archives.globalresearch.ca/articles/NYI304A.html)** ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/43 "2006-09-28T14:57:23Z")
For what should the Iraqis be grateful? Before the invasion, the average Iraqi didn’t have to worry about being shot as he went about his daily business and the electricity worked and all the buildings were intact. As long as he didn’t badmouth Saddam and kept a low profile, he was OK. Now his daily survival is uncertain and his infrastructure has crumbled. Given a choice between pre-invasion life and post-invastion life, why would he choose post-invasion life? I’d like to see the case for how toppling Saddam has helped the average Iraqi. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/44 "2006-09-28T14:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] As for that photo being staged…are you nuts or what? propaganda? I assume you have a cite for this. [/QUOTE] Educate yourself if you’re going to try to debate people that are already knowledgeable on the matter – otherwise all your arguments show is your enormous ignorance of the matter: [**A tale of two photos**](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2838.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/45 "2006-09-28T15:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] An oversight maybe? [/QUOTE] Boredom, more likely. Iraq is a colossal clusterfuck, period, end of story, due almost entirely to the incompetence of the Bush Administration as sheltered by hawks like yourself who have let your aggressive ideology blind you into willful ignorance. It’s taken years of making the same arguments over and over and over and over and over until through sheer repetition, and by the screaming reality of facts on the ground, the blinders of most war advocates in these parts have been forcibly torn away. And yet it seems that every month or so we get a new guest or member who thinks they’ll be able to make the same old pro-war arguments stand up where all the previous efforts have failed. It’s vaguely amusing to watch an endless queue of people repeatedly trying to nail this Jell-O to the wall, but it does get old eventually. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/46 "2006-09-28T15:07:37Z")
BTW, does the following poll make 80% of Americans anti-Americans? [Confidence in Iraq Policies Drops to 20% in U.S.](http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/13306) > [@](#): > > Fewer adults in the United States believe their government’s handling of the coalition effort has been adequate, according to a poll by Harris Interactive. Only 20 per cent of respondents are confident that U.S. policies in Iraq will be successful, down nine points in two years Because if it does, fact is, America is vastly anti-American :eek: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/47 "2006-09-28T15:13:13Z")
Some more good news: [**Heralded Iraq Police Academy a ‘Disaster’**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/27/AR2006092702134_pf.html) > [@](#): > > BAGHDAD, Sept. 27 – A $75 million project to build the largest police academy in Iraq has been so grossly mismanaged that the campus now poses health risks to recruits and might need to be partially demolished, U.S. investigators have found. > > The Baghdad Police College, hailed as crucial to U.S. efforts to prepare Iraqis to take control of the country’s security, was so poorly constructed that feces and urine rained from the ceilings in student barracks. Floors heaved inches off the ground and cracked apart. Water dripped so profusely in one room that it was dubbed “the rain forest.” > > “This is the most essential civil security project in the country – and it’s a failure,” said Stuart W. Bowen Jr., the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction, an independent office created by Congress. “The Baghdad police academy is a disaster.” > > Bowen’s office plans to release a 21-page report Thursday detailing the most alarming problems with the facility. > > Even in a $21 billion reconstruction effort that has been marred by cases of corruption and fraud, failures in training and housing Iraq’s security forces are particularly significant because of their effect on what the U.S. military has called its primary mission here: to prepare Iraqi police and soldiers so that Americans can depart . So, you were saying? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/48 "2006-09-28T15:30:20Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Think on this **Der Trihs** Whenever a disaster strikes whether natural or man made which is the first country to offer aid and assistance? You got the USA!! [/quote] Yeah, because _no other country_ helps people as much or more than America. :rolleyes: And of course sending aid to some other country magically makes things better in Iraq. [QUOTE=chowder] You don’t see hordes of people dancing for joy in the streets of America because some distant country has hit hard times…no you don’t. [/quote] Or for most any other reason, good or bad. Dancing in the streets just isn’t an American habit. [QUOTE=chowder] However let something happen to the USA or any of her allies and what do we get? [/quote] Iranians holding candlelight vigils, sympathy from damned near everyone ? We _had_ all that, and threw it away. We have _earned_ the worlds hatred. [QUOTE=chowder] As for that photo being staged…are you nuts or what? propaganda? I assume you have a cite for this. [/quote] What **tagos** and **Contrapuntal** and **RedFury** said. Crawl out of your right wing fantasy and pay attention to reality. [QUOTE=chowder] Did I mention mass graves in my earlier post?. [/quote] At least Saddam bothered to bury his victims. [QUOTE=chowder] Do you not think if the Iraqis had just left the USA and her Allies to get on with the business of rebuilding the country instead of hampering them at every possible opportunity then things MAY just be a bit better…MAY even be a whole lot better. [/quote] No. We never tried. It’s also _their_ country, not ours, you know. [QUOTE=chowder] **TORTURE** SH did this on a massive scale and whilst admitting that allied troops have been found guilty of the same crime it is nothing compared. [/quote] As already pointed out, it’s worse now than it was before. [QUOTE=chowder] It does not excuse the allied troops, they should suffer all the penalties of law, both civil and military. [/QUOTE] But not the people giving them the ( probably ) orders, encouragement and permission to do so. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/49 "2006-09-28T15:31:00Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] OK I was wrong and I apologise for my ill judged remarks. **tagos** states my view of Iraq is wrong but makes no reply to the points raised in my earlier post. An oversight maybe? [/QUOTE] You did not raise any points. You blustered and ranted in an entirely unoriginal way, which I rebutted with copious facts. If you want to raise some points in something other than your own head then post them with the substantiating cites. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/50 "2006-09-28T15:37:59Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] You did not raise any points. You blustered and ranted in an entirely unoriginal way, which I rebutted with copious facts. If you want to raise some points in something other than your own head then post them with the substantiating cites. [/QUOTE] And might I add - relevant. As in pertaining to Iraq. Look - I give to the point of hurting to major relief appeals. Call me Jesus but I don’t think that gives me permission to punch passing strangers in the face, go shit in their houses and torture their pets. Even less do I expect them to thank me for it. You apparently believe otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/51 "2006-09-28T15:40:18Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] (Exception: there is considerable evidence that the Kurds just flat love us half to death. I suspect they hope we will protect them from our allies, the Turks, and our enemies, the Iranians. Whether this reflects any real admiration I leave to the reader’s judgement…) [/QUOTE] The US been berry berry good to the Kurds, so I suspect the admiration is real. They’ve been living in a more or less autonomous zone since long before the invastion, thanks to the US no-fly zones. As for the OP, that poll is very disturbing. However, is the OP’s contention that governments should always act in accordance with public opinion polls, or only when those polls agree with his own preferences? I’m all for getting out of Iraq soon, but that decision has to be made by what’s in the best interest of Iraq and the US. Public opinion polls are fickle and not the best way to guide public policy-- unless of course, the poll is the only poll that really matters, ie, and election. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/52 "2006-09-28T15:59:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m all for getting out of Iraq soon, but that decision has to be made by what’s in the best interest of Iraq and the US. [/QUOTE] And are the Iraqis going to have a say in what their “best interest” is ? Somehow I think not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/53 "2006-09-28T16:04:20Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And are the Iraqis going to have a say in what their “best interest” is ? Somehow I think not. [/QUOTE] The get to do that thru their government, which has not asked us to leave yet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/54 "2006-09-28T16:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] The get to do that thru their government, which has not asked us to leave yet. [/QUOTE] Because they’d be killed as collaborators no doubt; it’s not really the Iraqi’s government or the government of Iraq anyway. Besides, we’d just ignore any such request. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/55 "2006-09-28T16:32:25Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Noted: but do not do this again, outside the **Pit**. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] Rest assured I will hold my tongue in the future no matter how intense I feel. Again my apologies ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/56 "2006-09-28T17:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because they’d be killed as collaborators no doubt; [/quote] Something you made up, no doubt. > [@](#): > > it’s not really the Iraqi’s government or the government of Iraq anyway. Something else you made up, no doubt. > [@](#): > > Besides, we’d just ignore any such request. We’ll probably never find out about that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/57 "2006-09-28T17:44:39Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] The US been berry berry good to the Kurds, so I suspect the admiration is real. They’ve been living in a more or less autonomous zone since long before the invastion, thanks to the US no-fly zones… [/quote] Of late. In the not so distant past, the Kurds have been the object of our _realpolitik_. I have no doubt that they find us useful, whether or not they find us “admirable” is quite another kettle of piranha. > [@](#): > > …As for the OP, that poll is very disturbing. However, is the OP’s contention that governments should always act in accordance with public opinion polls, or only when those polls agree with his own preferences?.. You got me. I am one hundred percent partisan in thought, word and deed. I lack my corresondents persistent..nay, relentless…nay, _pitiless_…non-partisan even handedness. If “lack” is precisely the word… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/58 "2006-09-28T17:57:05Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] You got me. I am one hundred percent partisan in thought, word and deed. I lack my corresondents persistent..nay, relentless…nay, _pitiless_…non-partisan even handedness. If “lack” is precisely the word… [/QUOTE] It was a simple question, and had nothing to do with being partisan. You need to offer more than just a public opinion poll if you’re advocating a certain action. In particular, it’s important to look depper than just the numbers to find out the reasons behind the numbers. We can never be certain about those reasons, but to the extent that they can be determined, it helps understand how those polls might in fact be usefull in determining policy. In particular, if you go to the full article, the authors make the point that slight changes in US policy could make big changes in the perception of Iraqis: > [@](#): > > It is always difficult to know why people have certain attitudes, but some findings are strongly suggestive. A large majority of Iraqis—and a majority in all ethnic groups-- believes that the US plans to maintain permanent military bases in Iraq and would not withdraw its forces if the Iraqi government asked it to. Among those who support attacks this belief is especially high, while those who do not support attacks mostly believe that it is not the case. This suggests that some Iraqis approve of such attacks, not because they are so eager for the US-led forces to get out immediately, but because they want to put pressure on the US to get out eventually. > > \ > > There is also some evidence that if the US were to make a commitment to withdraw according to a timetable, support for attacks would diminish. The 61 percent who said they approved of attacks were asked: “If the US made a commitment to withdraw from Iraq according to a timetable, would you feel less supportive of attacks against US-led forces or would it make no difference?” Most of these—36% (of the full sample)—said that they would feel less supportive, while 23 percent said it would make no difference. Those saying they would feel less supportive included 43 percent of the Shias and 42 percent of the Sunnis. So, it’s not so much that they want us out as they want to be reassured that we intent to get out at some point. Which pretty much validates my policy recommendation. Imagine that! BTW, if I wanted to point out partisanship on your part, I would’ve noted that your OP said the link went to ThinkProgress, when it in fact went to PIPA, but that does tell us where you attention is focused. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/59 "2006-09-28T18:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] …BTW, if I wanted to point out partisanship on your part, I would’ve noted that your OP said the link went to ThinkProgress, when it in fact went to PIPA, but that does tell us where you attention is focused… [/QUOTE] The quotes offered were ThinkProgress’ assessment of the meaning of the polls, just as I said. The ultimate source of the data was also correctly identified, as it should have been. Rather than rephrase the blazingly obvious, I simply used thier take on it, as I found it succinct and factual. If you have reasons to believe otherwise, you are invited to bring it. There is nothing evasive or slanted in my sourcing. Your phrasing: > [@](#): > > …is the OP’s contention that governments should always act in accordance with public opinion polls, or only when those polls agree with his own preferences?.. ..implies that I hold a view easily dismissed, which implies that my other view are as easily dismissed. This is the very essence of the much-abused phrase “straw man”. I would have thought I had more of your regard than that. I would have thought I had earned it. I would have bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/60 "2006-09-28T18:20:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Something you made up, no doubt. [/quote] It’s called an _opinion_. You may have heard of the concept. It’s alos common sense; given their admirable enthusiasm for the death of American soldiers, I doubt they will be less entusiastic about killing collaborators. [QUOTE=John Mace] Something else you made up, no doubt. [/quote] Can they order us off their own land ? Can they eliminate the “Bremer orders”, regulate their own economy, kick out Haliburton and so forth ? No, therefore they are not sovereign; they are no more Iraq’s government than I am. Do they control what happens in the “nation” of Iraq; can they maintain order; can they get people to do what they want ? No, therefore they are not a functional government. They are a circus we’ve propped up to make Iraq look like something other than an American occupied anarchy. [QUOTE=John Mace] We’ll probably never find out about that. [/QUOTE] Of course; it would be suicide on their part. [QUOTE=John Mace] So, it’s not so much that they want us out as they want to be reassured that we intent to get out at some point. [/QUOTE] Same thing, worded differently. They just don’t _believe_ us; only fools would, after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380.md?page=4)