# Iraqis Say "Bugger Off!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380 "2006-09-27T16:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/61 "2006-09-28T19:22:29Z")
I’ve been reading the replies, and there’s been one glaring omission about the situation of Anbar. [Iraqi Sunni tribal leaders offer help to Shi’ite PM](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1432482006) So there might be a memo (or is one whatever) of the US Marines ‘losing’ the Anbar province, yet nearly all the tribal leaders of the Anbar province, something like 60-70% of them have joined forces to kick out Al Queda. > [@](#): > > _The United States says its 30,000 troops in Anbar – by far the deadliest province for U.S. forces in Iraq – cannot defeat the insurgency on their own. Senior commanders say they have been delighted by the proposed security cooperation._ And in my own opinion, the polls might be indicative of public sentiment, and that will have to be resolved, but unfortunately, in not to create a bigger mess than the current situation, they’re going to have to wait until viable security forces are able to stand up on their own, now I know I’m going to hear that could be never, however, we’re talking about a 3 year old army taking over security operations. There’s no doubt that both the Army and Police forces of Iraq will need at least triple the amount of time to be considered able to act independently. Militias are the sticking point though, even Sadr seems to be unable to control parts of his militia forces, which brings the reason of continuing the training and establishment of government forces to be able to control the country, no matter how difficult it is. [http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/28/africa/web.0928sadr.php](http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/28/africa/web.0928sadr.php) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/62 "2006-09-28T20:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] The quotes offered were ThinkProgress’ assessment of the meaning of the polls, just as I said. The ultimate source of the data was also correctly identified, as it should have been. Rather than rephrase the blazingly obvious, I simply used thier take on it, as I found it succinct and factual. If you have reasons to believe otherwise, you are invited to bring it. There is nothing evasive or slanted in my sourcing. [/quote] OK, my bad there. I noticed that the first sentence in your quote was directly from the PIPA sourse, so I figured the rest of it was, too. And since there was no link to ThinkProgress, I thought you made a typo. > [@](#): > > Your phrasing: > > ..implies that I hold a view easily dismissed, which implies that my other view are as easily dismissed. This is the very essence of the much-abused phrase “straw man”. I asked a simple question. You offered no evidence other than the poll numbers themselves. Asking a quesiton is not a strawman. All you need to say is “no”. If you want an example of a strawman, this is a good one: > [@](#): > > You got me. I am one hundred percent partisan in thought, word and deed. I lack my corresondents persistent..nay, relentless…nay, pitiless…non-partisan even handedness. If “lack” is precisely the word… > [@](#): > > I would have thought I had more of your regard than that. I would have thought I had earned it. I would have bet on it. I would’ve thought you’d respond to the main argument in my post, instead of getting all tweaked out about the little teasing joke at the end. It wasn’t an accident that I put the winkie smiley there, you know-- that’s what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/63 "2006-09-28T20:26:24Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] It’s also fucking cowardice. IMHO the Iraqis are a shower of ingrates. [/QUOTE] Lets say I thought you needed a car, so I bought you a car and drove it through your living room, how grateful would you be? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/64 "2006-09-28T20:27:49Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] Lets say I thought you needed a car, so I bought you a car and drove it through your living room, how grateful would you be? [/QUOTE] Especially if you crushed his/her spouse and children in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/65 "2006-09-28T20:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] \*\* Der Trihs\*\* They were fucking grateful enough when US troops were pulling down those statues of Hussein. Don’t talk to me about ruthless brutal enemy soldiers, talk about the torture chambers that Hussein had, talk to me about the thousands of people that just vanished under that pricks despotic rule, those were the good old days I guess. Talk to me about those days or don’t talk to me at all. In any event I have you pegged as anti American every fucking thing so don’t talk to me EVER. [/QUOTE] According to a recent study, there is more torture in Iraq today than there was under Saddam Hussein. There have been over 100,000 civilian deaths since we invaded Iraq. While this falls below the level of death that occurred during the genocide of the Iraqi Kurds, (about 200,000 deaths), however our average kills per annum is higher than his average kills per annum. The Kurds still like us, only 35% of Kurds want us out within a year (although 70% want us out within 2 years). While only about 22% of Iraqis believe that the US is a positive presence in Iraq, the percentage is 56% (41% think its a negative). While over 60% of Iraqis approve of attacks on US troops only 15% of Kurds do so. So in generaly, the Kurds still like us but they only represent 15 to 20% of the Iraqi population. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/66 "2006-09-28T21:18:24Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] OK, my bad there. I noticed that the first sentence in your quote was directly from the PIPA sourse, so I figured the rest of it was, too. And since there was no link to ThinkProgress, I thought you made a typo… [/quote] Your abject admission of error is regarded benignly. Go, and sin no more. > [@](#): > > …It wasn’t an accident that I put the winkie smiley there, you know-- that’s what it means. Not quite. The part I found objectionable was: > [@](#): > > …However, is the OP’s contention that governments should always act in accordance with public opinion polls, or only when those polls agree with his own preferences?.. not > [@](#): > > …the little teasing joke at the end… Which is where the smiley is located, presumably in reference to the statement immediately preceding, by habit and custom. If it was intended to imply that the entire post should be taken as lighthearted badinage, I missed it. And still rather doubt it. I very much doubt that you truly believe that I hold either of those absurd postions, and that comprises the bulk of your post. What other serious argument did you make? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/67 "2006-09-28T21:26:17Z")
Saw a spokesman for Turkey on tv last night. His take was whenever we leave there will be war. The oil rich lands are too good to pass up. He also expressed that the terrorist training occuring will continue and neighboring countries will face it. he is not happy about the mess we will have to leave.Kirkuk is much sought after. Civil war he felt was inevitable. The 3 factions wont be stoppped. He didnt say turkey had designs on the north however. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/68 "2006-09-28T21:28:55Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] [Torture now worse than under saddam](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm) . [/QUOTE] We should remember that when we talk about torture being more prevalent in Iraq now than before, a lot of that torture is being inflicted by Sunnis on Shiites and shiites on Sunnis etc. Its not like WE are the ones doing it, we just created the environment in which this occurred. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/69 "2006-09-28T21:31:41Z")
Cold comfort indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/70 "2006-09-28T21:34:14Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] WTF? Fighting the mightest fighting force the world’s ever seen with rusty rifles and improvised bombs, all the while keeping them, at the very least, at a standstill, is actually corageous as all hell. [/QUOTE] Its not courage, its frustration, its desperation, its anger, its a natural human reaction. I mean what would you have done if 20 years ago Russia had invaded the USA to free us from evil capitalist influences so that a truly democratic government (without the influence of capitalist interests) could be put in place, and then proceeded to screw things up as royally as we did in Iraq? I know its not a perfect analogy but you get the point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/71 "2006-09-28T21:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] However let something happen to the USA or any of her allies and what do we get? [/QUOTE] I remember quite an outpouring of sympathy from around the world (including Syria, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah) condemning the actions of Al Queda. When we invaded Afghanistan for not turning over Osama bin Laden (I believe Afghanistan wanted us to lift economic sanctions in exchange), everyone basically went along with us. Then we pissed away a whole lot of international goodwill and lied to the American people so that we could go to Iraq qand spend 300 billion dollars on a war. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/72 "2006-09-28T22:35:23Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Not quite. The part I found objectionable was: [/QUOTE] I didn’t realize you were so thin skinned. I’ll keep that in mind, since it seems to be preventing you from responding to perhaps the only person posting in this thread who actually read the whole article. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/73 "2006-09-28T22:41:38Z")
A relevant point, from Bush-at-war author [Bob Woodward:](http://cbs4denver.com/national/topstories_story_271110225.html) > [@](#): > > President Bush is absolutely certain that he has the U.S. and Iraq on the right course, says Woodward. So certain is the president on this matter, Woodward says, that when Mr. Bush had key Republicans to the White House to discuss Iraq, he told them, “I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me.” What was that [Einstein quote](http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26032.html) about insanity again? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/74 "2006-09-28T23:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I didn’t realize you were so thin skinned. I’ll keep that in mind… [/QUOTE] Screw that. Freak freely. Piss me off, I’ll tell you, but prior restraint isn’t my bag. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/75 "2006-09-29T11:00:02Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] We should remember that when we talk about torture being more prevalent in Iraq now than before, a lot of that torture is being inflicted by Sunnis on Shiites and shiites on Sunnis etc. Its not like WE are the ones doing it, we just created the environment in which this occurred. [/QUOTE] Tortured is tortured and dead is dead. None of it would be happening if we hadn’t invaded instead Saddam would still be doing his bit. Which as people have said at least gave the populance a chance to keep their heads down and get on with the best life they could in a functioning society where women had rights. Unless they were good looking and crossed his evil son’s path. But now every bad thing that happened under Saddam is going on still, but on a wider scale. I have been, for the last 25 years all in favour of international action to remove Saddam. Given my druthers the West would not have supported him in the first place. But we had one chance to do this properly and to do it for the right reasons but instead we decided to do it for trumped up reasons with such a level of disgraceful incompetence that the situation is incomparably worse and getting worse all the time. Blair, Bush and all their enablers should be tried as war criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/76 "2006-09-29T14:24:51Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Tortured is tortured and dead is dead. None of it would be happening if we hadn’t invaded instead Saddam would still be doing his bit. Which as people have said at least gave the populance a chance to keep their heads down and get on with the best life they could in a functioning society where women had rights. Unless they were good looking and crossed his evil son’s path. But now every bad thing that happened under Saddam is going on still, but on a wider scale. I have been, for the last 25 years all in favour of international action to remove Saddam. Given my druthers the West would not have supported him in the first place. But we had one chance to do this properly and to do it for the right reasons but instead we decided to do it for trumped up reasons with such a level of disgraceful incompetence that the situation is incomparably worse and getting worse all the time. Blair, Bush and all their enablers should be tried as war criminals. [/QUOTE] I understand but I have been hearing people interpreting the “more torture today than under Saddam” to mean that WE are torturing more people than Saddam used to torture in order to make a case against the torture bill. There are a lot of reasons to be against that bill but this is not one of them. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/77 "2006-09-29T14:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Well I’m pleased to hear this, mostly because it seems I have coined “former Iraq” but partly because it seems the Kurds may finally be getting a break. Leaving aside Iran and the coming battles for Kirkuk, the question is what the US can offer Turkey, to keep them from spoiling an independent Kurdistan. Turkey has been clear in its opposition for a while. [/QUOTE] Better question: What can the U.S. offer Turkey to give up their own Kurdish provinces? That would solve the problem permanently. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/78 "2006-09-29T15:01:10Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I understand but I have been hearing people interpreting the “more torture today than under Saddam” to mean that WE are torturing more people than Saddam used to torture in order to make a case against the torture bill. There are a lot of reasons to be against that bill but this is not one of them. Sorry for the hijack. [/QUOTE] You can’t hold us responsible for your personal interpretation but in the wider and very real sense WE are responsible. We opened the gates to chaos. The blood is on Bush and Blair’s hands. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/79 "2006-09-29T16:05:31Z")
Looks like Congress is getting the message even if our clueless adminstration isn’t: > [@](#): > > [Congress restricts Bush on Iraq spending](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060929/pl_nm/iraq_congress_dc_1) > > The U.S. Congress on Friday moved to block the Bush administration from building permanent U.S. military bases in > Iraq or controlling the country’s oil sector, as it approved $70 billion for funding the wars in Iraq and > Afghanistan. > > \ > > Democrats and many Republicans say the Iraqi insurgency has been fueled by perceptions that the United States has ambitions for a permanent presence in the country. They have called on Bush to make a policy statement that the United States has no such plans. Good Congress! Bad Bush! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380/80 "2006-09-29T22:33:40Z")
[QUOTE=col\_10022] I understand but I have been hearing people interpreting the “more torture today than under Saddam” to mean that WE are torturing more people than Saddam used to torture in order to make a case against the torture bill. There are a lot of reasons to be against that bill but this is not one of them. Sorry for the hijack. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > The UN’s chief anti-torture expert, [Manfred Nowak](http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm), believes that **torture in Iraq is now not only “totally out of hand,” but “worse” than under Saddam Hussein**. my bolding. Find me someone to blame other than Bush and his poodle, Blair. Beyond that US troops have done more than their fair share of torturing as well – not exactly Boy Scouts, you know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iraqis-say-bugger-off/374380.md?page=3)