# Ireland: Racist or misunderstood **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394 "2004-07-16T10:44:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/1 "2004-07-16T10:44:15Z")
I’m not happy. This country of mine voted by a majority of 80% in a recent referendum to change our citizenship law. [Referendum details](http://www.refcom.ie/RefCom/real/ref.nsf/cc70f4e9f4033f4b80256a4e004e9495/191419639b85e2c680256ea5007581ca?OpenDocument) Now while there where valid reasons to vote for this referendum eg. Unfair to the rest of our European partners as someone could get Irish citizenship and then go to anywhere in Europe. I have talked to a lot of people about this vote and everyone of the yes voters said they did it because of their concerns about immigrants. 40% of people in a exit poll said they voted for it because of immigration issues and not because of the direct citizenship issue. Now however my country has been congratulated by a pair of racist bastards. The pride rushes through my body > [@](#): > > From [here](http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/iestory.asp?j=94980653840&p=9498x6544zx&n=94980654449) > > Former KKK Grand Wizard and US presidential candidate David Duke said in his message: "The passing of this referendum is an amazing step for Ireland and the Irish people. > > “Thank you, Minister McDowell, for defending the heritage of our mothers and fathers. The European world is being overwhelmed (by immigrants).” > > Duke, who cannot hold office in the US after being convicted of tax evasion and postal fraud, is not the only controversial figure offering support for the outcome of the referendum. > > Eugene Terreblanche, who leads the extremist Afrikaner Resistance Movement, also praised Mr McDowell: “For our people in South Africa you are really an inspiration … I congratulate the minister on trying to protect the people against immigrants who they don’t want to be in Ireland.” Arrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh Oh BTW you’ll find some familiar names talking about this issue [here](http://p086.ezboard.com/fnadsfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=242.topic&start=1&stop=50) IMO Ireland has become quite a racist place. The remarks I’ve heard at work, in the pub, on the street have bothered me greatly. It’s openly talked about and people are openly abused on the street by a lot of people. Shameful. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/2 "2004-07-16T10:50:22Z")
You would say that, you fucking mick. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/3 "2004-07-16T10:51:32Z")
Typical Brit. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/4 "2004-07-16T11:08:33Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I’m not happy. This country of mine voted by a majority of 80% in a recent referendum to change our citizenship law. Gah, I don’t know how the old citizenship rules stack up against the other EU rules. AFAIK, what you’d had is what the US is supposed to doing. Having Duke talking about the good of having Europeans protecting themselves from immigration just gives me another reason to get cringy feelings about it. (Of course part of that is because I’ve got four or five strikes against me from Duke’s POV. I’m not black but that’s about the only thing about me that Mr. Duke wouldn’t find objectionable.) What I do wonder is whether immigration into Ireland is a recent concern? I am a Yankee (okay, damned yankee, since I’m from way up north as judged over here.) with no Irish in him, so my interest in Irish history is somewhat limited. I don’t know if I’m wrong about this or not, but isn’t immigration into Ireland of non-Anglo-Saxons rather recent? I’m not sure I’m putting this well, but, for all the orange/green hatreds, that’s always struck me as a hatred within the family so to speak. No less bloody and bloody-minded for that, but still between people of the same basic cultural background. I wonder if this isn’t just a natural reaction to losing some kind of homogenous nature to the culture/population. If I’ve got my head up my ass, don’t hold back - I’m well aware I could be wrong. I guess what bothers me most about it is the way that Duke (not knowing Terreblanche) is claiming it’s a victory for ‘right thinking’ peoples. Whether he’s right or not doesn’t change that it shames me that he’s trying to represent my views abroad. (let’s give thanks for small blessings: He’s not an elected official, at least.) ---
**Author:** ![counsel\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@counsel\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/counsel_wolf)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/5 "2004-07-16T11:26:39Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > IMO Ireland has become quite a racist place. The remarks I’ve heard at work, in the pub, on the street have bothered me greatly. It’s openly talked about and people are openly abused on the street by a lot of people. Shameful. Interesting topic, thanks for opening it up. It would be my contention that Ireland has always been racist and somewhat bigoted. Quite simply the Irish are used to being a monoculture and like any other monoculture are now having difficulty adjusting to a situation where that cannot remain the case. Consider that if you live outside Dublin it was quite possible until recently to never have seen a person whose skin colour or lifestyle differed considerably from your own except on the television. What’s happening now (and I agree with you that many of the sentiments expressed are shameful) is not the result of new sentiment but the expression of sentiments long felt. As a non-catholic who was born and grew up in Ireland I can tell you that distrust of the non-white, non-catholic, non-republican, non celtic-supporting types has always been here, it’s just a lot easier to label somebody as one of ‘them’ if the skin colour or dress is radically different, which is why we’re seeing abuse on the street. It’s personally embarrassing to me to hear Ireland described as a welcoming country, because it simply isn’t true. If you’re a tourist, dump your money in our outstretched hands and feck off, everyone else can just feck off. Now that Ireland has a decent economy, a sensible birth rate and is an attractive destination for foreign workers and refugees we are going to see this problem get out of hand. The real question is what do we do about it? I’m no great fan of hate speech legislation and would like the government not to extend our existing legislation there. In my opinion there just isn’t enough being done to highlight what positive effects this can have for Irish culture and the economy, perhaps that’s the first direction that should be taken? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/6 "2004-07-16T11:27:37Z")
To answer your factual question, immigration in Ireland is very recent - only really started when the Celtic tiger began in the early-mid 1990s (coincidentally, that’s when I arrived here). Prior to that there was actually net _emigration_. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/7 "2004-07-16T11:31:36Z")
It’s a pretty recent thing **OtakuLoki**. Up to the late 80’s Ireland was a very poor country in fact the country was basically broke but then [the celtic tiger](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/12/11/60II/main256404.shtml) roared and the country got rich. The migrants are mostly Nigerian and Romanian and when they started to arrive along came the usual bullshit about how they are getting more than the Irish poor. Free houses, cars etc. utter crap but a lot of people believe it. > [@](#): > > by **counsel wolf** > > It would be my contention that Ireland has always been racist and somewhat bigoted. Quite simply the Irish are used to being a monoculture and like any other monoculture are now having difficulty adjusting to a situation where that cannot remain the case. Consider that if you live outside Dublin it was quite possible until recently to never have seen a person whose skin colour or lifestyle differed considerably from your own except on the television. What’s happening now (and I agree with you that many of the sentiments expressed are shameful) is not the result of new sentiment but the expression of sentiments long felt. As a non-catholic who was born and grew up in Ireland I can tell you that distrust of the non-white, non-catholic, non-republican, non celtic-supporting types has always been here, it’s just a lot easier to label somebody as one of ‘them’ if the skin colour or dress is radically different, which is why we’re seeing abuse on the street. Yep gotta agree with this ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/8 "2004-07-16T11:34:55Z")
So … does this mean no more black Irish? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/9 "2004-07-16T11:35:59Z")
Ireland moved from “that second-world island full of elves to the left of Britain” to “fastest growing economy in the EU” within a decade. The influx of immigrants is just as recent. We had similar bollocks going on in the 1960’s and 1970’s, when Holland went through a similar phase. I’d say Ireland is growing up, and is experiencing one of its growth spurts. I don’t mean that condescendingly, by the way - you know how much I love the country. But xenophobia is of all times and all places, and it’s no miracle that it’s rearing it’s ugly head in Ireland right now. This too shall pass. BTW, I got a huge kick out of that fucking muppet Terreblanche fulminating about immigrant issues. Maybe it’s time someone told him that _Whitey_ is the immigrant in South Africa, not Darkie. ---
**Author:** ![counsel\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@counsel\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/counsel_wolf)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/10 "2004-07-16T11:47:26Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Ireland moved from “that second-world island full of elves to the left of Britain” to “fastest growing economy in the EU” within a decade. The influx of immigrants is just as recent. We had similar bollocks going on in the 1960’s and 1970’s, when Holland went through a similar phase. > > I’d say Ireland is growing up, and is experiencing one of its growth spurts. I don’t mean that condescendingly, by the way - you know how much I love the country. But xenophobia is of all times and all places, and it’s no miracle that it’s rearing it’s ugly head in Ireland right now. This too shall pass. Hopefully before we get a permanent underclass or race riots, my major hope is that we can draw on the experiences of other countries to prevent such occurances. I would also note that Ireland may not move as swiftly as Holland, which has always had a reasonably progressive outlook, a lot of permanent damage can be done if the problem drags out into decades long. > [@Coldfire](#): > > BTW, I got a huge kick out of that fucking muppet Terreblanche fulminating about immigrant issues. Maybe it’s time someone told him that _Whitey_ is the immigrant in South Africa, not Darkie. Very minor but interesting aside, I’ve never heard anyone complain about the number of (white) South Africans now living and working in ireland, interesting that. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/11 "2004-07-16T11:54:57Z")
> [@cousel wolf](#): > > we can draw on the experiences of other countries to prevent such occurances Alas, Ireland doesn’t have a very good history of learning from others’ mistakes… For example, they were still building the Ballymun towers when similar social housing projects in France and the UK had already imploded. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/12 "2004-07-16T12:31:57Z")
Posted by **Yojimbo** **Ireland: Racist or misunderstood** Those whom you describe as “immigrants”. What “race” are you talking about, here? If it simply involves other European nationalities, then even that would not make it a “racial” issue, although, admittedly, there are quite a few SDMB members who seem incapable of distinguishing between a race, a nationality, a culture and a religion (i.e. a cult involving the supernatural), or a conglomeration of two or more of the above. Posted by **OtakuLoki** > [@](#): > > but isn’t immigration into Ireland of non-Anglo-Saxons rather recent? I’m not sure I’m putting this well, but, for all the orange/green hatreds, that’s always struck me as a hatred within the family so to speak. I take it you mean Presbyterian Celts from Scotland and Irish Catholic Celts from Ireland. A gross oversimplification, by the way. There are no pure Celts in the British Isles any more than there are pure Anglo Saxons (or Jutes, for that matter). You have a situation in former Yugoslavia where the only significant difference between Croats and Serbs is the religion and the alphabet used. Croats are mostly Catholic and use the Roman alphabet. Serbs are mostly Eastern Orthodox and use the Cyrillic alphabet. They speak the same language and share the same ethnicity, but the cultural constructs that divided them so any centuries ago have caused the politically and religiously motivated elements of each group to continue to slaughter each other quite happily. Quoting from the explanation on the amendment provided in the link: > [@](#): > > The change will mean that: > > People born in the island of Ireland after the constitutional amendment takes effect will not have a constitutional right to be Irish citizens, unless, at the time of their birth, one of their parents is an Irish citizen or is entitled to be an Irish citizen. This is probably designed to demolish a method of bypassing immigration laws. A phenomenon experienced in the US where illegal immigrants from hopelessly governed third world cess pools visit the US simply to give birth to their child on US territory so that the mothers (and family) can bypass existing immigration procedures. However, I don’t believe that you will see any drastic changes take place, particularly as the constitutional change only means that: > [@](#): > > The Oireachtas will then be in a position to pass legislation which governs how other people born in Ireland may become Irish citizens. At present, legislation provides that every person born in the island of Ireland is entitled to citizenship. If the proposal is passed the Oireachtas will have the power to change the existing legislation if it so wishes but it could not make a change that would affect the constitutional right of citizenship of the child of an Irish citizen parent where that child is born in the island of Ireland. So in the final analysis, it will up to the legislative body, when and if it gets around to it. If the legislation is passed, the lawyers and judges managing the court process can effectively gut it as they usually love letting things drag on forever, with interminable hearings and adjournments. As for the praise received from Messrs Duke and Terreblanche, why worry. They don’t realise that there will be no real change as a result of the referendum because the people who have been graciously permitted to have a say in expressing their wishes by their elected dictators have no way of ensuring that any constitutional law passed will become effective. As for the 80% of your compatriots you condemn, ask those “Yeses” to whom you spoke in 5 years time if they’re happy with the way the constitutional amendment worked out. (Hint: duck for cover). ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/13 "2004-07-16T12:41:42Z")
> [@Alan Owes Bess](#): > > Posted by **Yojimbo** > Those whom you describe as “immigrants”. What “race” are you talking about, here? > > If it simply involves other European nationalities, then even that would not make it a “racial” issue, although, admittedly, there are quite a few SDMB members who seem incapable of distinguishing between a race, a nationality, a culture and a religion (i.e. a cult involving the supernatural), or a conglomeration of two or more of the above. Nigerian and Romanian mostly get the stick. > [@](#): > > This is probably designed to demolish a method of bypassing immigration laws. A phenomenon experienced in the US where illegal immigrants from hopelessly governed third world cess pools visit the US simply to give birth to their child on US territory so that the mothers (and family) can bypass existing immigration procedures. months before the referendum the highest court in the land found that while the child has a right to Irish citizenship that right does not carry to the parents and also the parents had no right to stay in Ireland if their case for asylum failed. The child would have to leave with them but as a Irish citizen would obviously have to right to return with full rights in the future. I’ll try to dig up a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/14 "2004-07-16T12:43:50Z")
Oh, fer bollix sakes. The Racism Semantics Nitpickery Debate, and right on cue, too. Less than two hours. AKB, if we’re going to be completely scientific about it, racism doesn’t exist, as _races_ don’t exist. But for this purpose, I think it’s safe to conclude that yojimbo used the term “racism” equally for xenophobic tendencies towards whichever non-Irish group, be they black (Nigerians) or white (Romanians, etc). Horribly sloppy, I know. But that’s those Micks for ya. ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/15 "2004-07-16T12:52:41Z")
Racism, in this context, surely means foreigneritis. As foreigneritis isn’t a word and stupid people can’t spell xenophobia, let’s call 'em racists. They ought to know what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/16 "2004-07-16T12:56:07Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Oh, fer bollix sakes. The Racism Semantics Nitpickery Debate, and right on cue, too. Less than two hours. > > AKB, if we’re going to be completely scientific about it, racism doesn’t exist, as _races_ don’t exist. But for this purpose, I think it’s safe to conclude that yojimbo used the term “racism” equally for xenophobic tendencies towards whichever non-Irish group, be they black (Nigerians) or white (Romanians, etc). > > Horribly sloppy, I know. But that’s those Micks for ya. If you thought that was a refutation of AOB’s argument, you are mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/17 "2004-07-16T13:03:13Z")
If you thought I particularly cared, you’re quite off base as well, **Lib**. I don’t like petty nitpickers, even if they _are_ technically correct. We all have our likes and dislikes, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/18 "2004-07-16T13:07:23Z")
I’ve heard a Romanian girl being called a “white nigger”. In fact it nearly led to me committing assault on the pig who said it. Romanians are very noticeable over here. Their skin is darker and they generally dress in their own style which is very different that Irish and western European style. The Nigerians are black so that is racism. “why don’t all those nigger fucks go back to chucking spears back in their shitehole of a country” was a real life quote I heard. The same kind of sentiments and arguments are used against both groups. One is racist, one is xenophobic. Whatever. AFAIC if it walks like a racist prick and quacks like a racist prick it’s a racist prick even if technically they’re not racist just bigoted ignorant and embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/19 "2004-07-16T13:20:15Z")
> [@Alan Owes Bess](#): > > This is probably designed to demolish a method of bypassing immigration laws. A phenomenon experienced in the US where illegal immigrants from hopelessly governed third world cess pools visit the US simply to give birth to their child on US territory so that the mothers (and family) can bypass existing immigration procedures. “Third world cesspools”? The last person I remember using that phrase here was one of our Stormfront visitors. Not that I’m implying anything :rolleyes: In fact, the mothers and family were not bypassing existing immigration procedures either in the US or here, because the child’s citizenship does not confer residency rights onto the parents. (Admittedly it did in Ireland up until a year and a half ago, but it doesn’t any more). > [@](#): > > So in the final analysis, it will up to the legislative body, when and if it gets around to it. If the legislation is passed, the lawyers and judges managing the court process can effectively gut it as they usually love letting things drag on forever, with interminable hearings and adjournments. The legislation has already been published and there’s no question that it will pass - the Government has a built-in majority, after all, as well as the support of Fine Gael and a number of the independents. I think it’s unlikely this one will be held up in the courts for very long, if at all. However, I do agree that it won’t make a dent in the amount of immigration to Ireland seeing as it doesn’t actually have any impact on people’s right or ability to immigrate. _sigh_ I used to say there was only one thing that would ever make me leave this country voluntarily. Unfortunately, I now have to say that racism is giving the weather a run for its money. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/20 "2004-07-16T13:22:59Z")
That’s **AOB** to you, **Coldie**. Try to confine yourself to the gravamen of the issue at hand and refrain from cavorting away on some irrelevant side issue involving the existence or non-existence of race. Hell, even I know there’s no such thing as a poodle. It’s just a dog. Stephen Jay Gould and his doctrine is not the main topic of discussion here. Get a good, firm, loving grip on yourself my good man. Actually, Coldie, I think you should change your specialty to matters involving copyright on SDMB. They desperately need new blood and I think you’ll fill the bill most admirably. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394.md?page=2)