# Ireland: Racist or misunderstood **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394 "2004-07-16T10:44:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/21 "2004-07-16T13:25:20Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Unfortunately, I now have to say that racism is giving the weather a run for its money. Amd where would you go? Racism is a human problem found in every country on the planet (yes, even in Canada!). IMOI, you should stay and fight for the character of Ireland. And I find the OP’s topic bitterly amusing given how the Irish were treated in the US after the great post-Famine migration. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/22 "2004-07-16T13:36:41Z")
> [@Alan Owes Bess](#): > > there are quite a few SDMB members who seem incapable of distinguishing between a race, a nationality, a culture and a religion Oh for fuck’s sake, not this canard again. Let’s go to Houghton Mifflin. Amongst other definitions, race is “A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution”; racism is “Discrimination or prejudice based on race”. Ergo, white-on-white xenophobia is in fact racism. ‘Irish’ is classified as an ethnic minority in the UK, and anti-Irish sentiment there is classed as racism. Good enough for me. Though _what_ this pettiness contributes to the argument, I have no idea; then again, I am having problems making sense of most of your post. To answer one question raised, the largest ethnic immigrant group in Ireland is Chinese, with 60,000 resident here, of whom 30,000 are in Dublin (population 1.5 million). The difference between the US and Irish situation, according to commentary here, is that the immigrant child born on US soil becomes a US citizen _with no right of abode_, whereas the Irish situation granted them right of abode. But not their parents, contrary to the misinformation doing the rounds before the referendum. I’ve found Ireland to be blatantly racist at times - moreso than any (non-Asian) country I’ve been in. Immigration is so new that the thought that a white person might not actually wish to share the bigotry doesn’t occur to some people. In my time here I’ve heard prejudice against Chinese, Malaysians (described to me as “pakis”), generic “blacks”, but also white Romanians. I’ve been on the receiving end of anti-Englishness, though I have to admit it’s been tiny, and also met a couple of antisemites, which is weird, because there are hardly any Jews in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/23 "2004-07-16T13:36:45Z")
Posted by **ruadh** > [@](#): > > “Third world cesspools”? The last person I remember using that phrase here was one of our Stormfront visitors. Not that I’m implying anything :rolleyes: You’re a fetid anal polyp. Not that I’m implying anything. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![counsel\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@counsel\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/counsel_wolf)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/24 "2004-07-16T13:38:50Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > However, I do agree that it won’t make a dent in the amount of immigration to Ireland seeing as it doesn’t actually have any impact on people’s right or ability to immigrate. Here’s a question, do we actually want to put a dent in the immigration numbers? My personal feeling is that the answer is no, Ireland can accomodate these people without lowering the standard of living of it’s citizens (and those of us who choose to make Ireland our home). It might be politically unrealistic but surely people can see the similarities between the situations of those who arrive on our shores and the Irish of the 19th and 20th centuries? Sad to see that empathy is dead. > [@ruadh](#): > > I used to say there was only one thing that would ever make me leave this country voluntarily. Unfortunately, I now have to say that racism is giving the weather a run for its money. Nah, I think I can make a difference here, even if it’s only voting my concience in a few elections/referendums. I’m off if Sinn Fein get into government however, something about having a party in power that thinks murdering my family is politically acceptable makes me nervous. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/25 "2004-07-16T13:43:53Z")
> [@counsel wolf](#): > > It might be politically unrealistic but surely people can see the similarities between the situations of those who arrive on our shores and the Irish of the 19th and 20th centuries? Sad to see that empathy is dead. It’s not dead. It’s one of the reasons why all this pisses me off. People have very short memories. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/26 "2004-07-16T13:47:53Z")
Here’s the standard empathy argument: “But that was different! We’re only a small island, we’ve only got 3.5 million people. There’s a housing shortage. Where would they all go?” This is easily countered by giving the population before the famine. But then, who am I to talk - I’m an immigrant too, though of the slightly-more-acceptable kind. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/27 "2004-07-16T13:49:10Z")
> [@Alan Owes Bess](#): > > Try to confine yourself to the gravamen of the issue at hand and refrain from cavorting away on some irrelevant side issue involving the existence or non-existence of race. Wah? If you feel it’s such a side issue, why the hell start your post with it, then? > [@](#): > > Stephen Jay Gould and his doctrine is not the main topic of discussion here. Get a good, firm, loving grip on yourself my good man. Again: I didn’t bring it up - _you_ did. I merely responded, much like **jjimm** now has, too, to your nitpickery. > [@](#): > > Actually, Coldie, I think you should change your specialty to matters involving copyright on SDMB. They desperately need new blood and I think you’ll fill the bill most admirably. I’m not much of a copyright expert, let alone well-versed in _American_ copyright matters. Think I’ll just stick to slapping nitpickers about, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/28 "2004-07-16T14:11:25Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > The difference between the US and Irish situation, according to commentary here, is that the immigrant child born on US soil becomes a US citizen with no right of abode, whereas the Irish situation granted them right of abode. But not their parents, contrary to the misinformation doing the rounds before the referendum. Is [this](http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1018721067826#Q1) the right of abode? > [@](#): > > The right of abode means that you are entirely free from United Kingdom immigration control; you do not need to get permission from an immigration officer to enter the United Kingdom and you can live and work here without restriction. If so, as far as I know a child born in the US to immigrant parents does have that right. They can travel here, live, and work just as any other citizen. But maybe I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/29 "2004-07-16T14:16:48Z")
> [@emulsified](#): > > But maybe I’m missing something. Quite a big something. Ireland’s not in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![counsel\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/65b543/32.png) [@counsel\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/counsel_wolf)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/30 "2004-07-16T14:17:45Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I’ve been on the receiving end of anti-Englishness, though I have to admit it’s been tiny. Me too, and I was born here, it’s gotten better in the past few years but I can’t help thinking that all that’s happened is that the hatred is now being spewed at other targets. I wouldn’t call it tiny though, chances are you’ve just learned to shut up about it. Try wearing an English football shirt or even better a Glasgow Rangers shirt and you’ll discover just how many people are anti-english. I hate having to censor everything I say through the “how will the idiot brigade take this” filter. > [@jjimm](#): > > and also met a couple of antisemites, which is weird, because there are hardly any Jews in Ireland. Census 2002 says 1790, 1220 of those in Dubln. Again having met in my 31 years here precisely 5 irish jews, it’s not something that comes up very often thus you don’t get an accurate picture of how widespread the attitude is. I’ll not be suprised when I see my first swastika though. A question for the other Irish here; the issue of race relations didn’t come up during my school years at all, did anyone else get any spiel on the topic? Is this something we need to add to the school curriculum? Would this help? We get the odd sunny optimism from the news about mixed race classrooms but what’s the reality like? Oh, and could those who are attempting to derail an interesting thread with semantics please not, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/31 "2004-07-16T14:19:53Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Quite a big something. Ireland’s not in the UK. Well, some of it is. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/32 "2004-07-16T14:30:31Z")
> [@counsel wolf](#): > > Here’s a question, do we actually want to put a dent in the immigration numbers? My personal feeling is that the answer is no, Ireland can accomodate these people without lowering the standard of living of it’s citizens (and those of us who choose to make Ireland our home). Oh, there’s plenty of room. Ireland is hardly a densely populated country. What I meant though was that people voted for the referendum thinking it would put a dent in the numbers, and it won’t. > [@](#): > > I’m off if Sinn Fein get into government however, something about having a party in power that thinks murdering my family is politically acceptable makes me nervous. Am I getting too personal asking who your family is? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/33 "2004-07-16T14:32:03Z")
[Here’s](http://www.iccl.ie/minorities/race/02_ibcjointstat.html) a letter talking about The Supreme Court case about the non-national parents of an Irish born citizen(pre-referendum obviously). I can’t find anything on the actual case and am being hassled to actually do some work :rolleyes: 🙂 so I can’t keep searching. They lost the case however and had to leave the country. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/34 "2004-07-16T14:35:26Z")
> [@emulsified](#): > > If so, as far as I know a child born in the US to immigrant parents does have that right. They can travel here, live, and work just as any other citizen. > > But maybe I’m missing something. Any child born in the U.S. (except children born to foreign diplomats, but that number is very, very small) has the right of abode and all other rights of U.S. citizenship; the case law even says that parents have no right to renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of a minor. This has been an issue with a number of Indian clients in my office; India currently does not allow dual citizenship, so several times clients have asked about renouncing U.S. citizenship on behalf of their U.S.-born children so as not to be placed in the absurd position of having to obtain visas for their children when they go home on vacation. But unless someone with the right to reside in the U.S. is around to take care of that child (another relative, in many cases – an aunt, uncle, grandparent, or perhaps an adult sibling), all the U.S. citizenship rights in the world are useless until the child becomes an adult. If the parents are forced to leave the U.S., as a practical matter the U.S. citizen child usually does as well. As a U.S. citizen, the child can return later when he/she is able, but usually will not have had the opportunity to take advantage of first-world educational systems, medical care, etc. in the interim. Eva Luna, U.S. Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/35 "2004-07-16T14:38:33Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Quite a big something. Ireland’s not in the UK. Erm… Umm… Yeah, that _is_ a big something. But my question, I think, still stands. Is that cite–although, yes, it refers to the UK–an accurate description of Ireland’s “right of abode.” And if so, as far as I know a child born in the US to immigrant parents does have that right. They can travel here, live, and work just as any other citizen. ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/36 "2004-07-16T14:41:22Z")
Eva, you are too fast for me. Thank for answering. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/37 "2004-07-16T14:43:29Z")
Up until the referendum the child was an Irish citizen and so had all the rights of an Irish citizen the parents did not however and a situation like **Eva Luna** describes came into play. Not any more however. The child is not by default a citizen anymore. That has to be decided by the legislation that is being put through the Dail(Parliament). ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/38 "2004-07-16T14:46:52Z")
I have to say it’s quite refreshing for me to be 1: Not giving out about Bush 2: Defending M. Moore. Good to gripe about the _oulde sod_ every now and the fuckers that inhabit it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/39 "2004-07-16T14:50:37Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > [Here’s](http://www.iccl.ie/minorities/race/02_ibcjointstat.html) a letter talking about The Supreme Court case about the non-national parents of an Irish born citizen(pre-referendum obviously). > > I can’t find anything on the actual case and am being hassled to actually do some work :rolleyes: 🙂 so I can’t keep searching. > > They lost the case however and had to leave the country. The case is called Lobe and Osayande (L&O for short) and was decided in January 2003. Prior to then, the parents of Irish children were allowed to apply for permission to remain in the State on account of (a) the child’s constitutional right to live here and (b) Article 41 of the Constitution which grants special protection to the family. After L&O these parents could be deported but only on a case-by-case basis. The Government, incredibly, decided that the decision would apply to all families with outstanding applications for permission to remain and thus there is currently a backlog of thousands upon thousands of families in legal limbo waiting for the Minister for Justice (a notorious hardass) to decide their fate. What really gets up my nose about this is a lot of these families had applied for refugee status, had withdrawn those applications on the advice of Refugee Legal Services (an arm of the State!) after having their children, and now they’re fucked. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394/40 "2004-07-16T14:53:10Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I have to say it’s quite refreshing for me to be > > 1: Not giving out about Bush > 2: Defending M. Moore. > > Good to gripe about the _oulde sod_ every now and the fuckers that inhabit it. > > 🙂 Yeah, and on that note let me withdraw my last question to **counsel wolf** , it’s nice to have an Irish pit thread that isn’t about Sinn Féin 🙂 Forgot to say in my last post, there have been cases where parents being deported along with their children have been ordered - illegally - to surrender their child’s Irish passport :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-racist-or-misunderstood/255394.md?page=3)