# Ireland SSM referendum heats up **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 15, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106 "2015-05-15T13:46:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/1 "2015-05-15T13:46:30Z")
I’m surprised not to see a thread about this as I know we have a few Irish types here, although I suppose UK Dopers who might also have chimed in will have been occupied by the OTHER recent election. Anyway, this is happening next Friday: [Ireland prepares for historic vote on gay marriage](http://www.channel4.com/news/marriage-equality-debate-ireland-vote-referendum). For context it’s worth noting that it was only 20 years ago that Ireland had [a referendum on allowing divorce](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland) which passed quite narrowly, so it will be interesting to see how it all plays out next week and how far Ireland has changed in the last few decades. From the buzz I’ve seen it’s looking very [divisive](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32486426)and emotional as these things often are. The youth vote is overwhelming in favour of SSM but are less likely to turn out than the older groups, making the result difficult to predict. The “No” campaign has been hitting the “think of the children!” button pretty much non-stop (“A child deserves a mother and a father”, that sort of thing), celebs of all ilks are coming out (sometimes [literally](http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/tv3s-ursula-halligan-comes-out-as-she-calls-yes-vote-the-most-christian-thing-to-do-31224441.html)) for one side or the other, and both sides are accusing each other of using fear and intimidation tactics. Should be an interesting week in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/2 "2015-05-16T02:28:51Z")
This headline from the Irish Times came up on my Google feed a few days ago: [Archbishops and leading theologian call for Yes vote](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/archbishops-and-leading-theologian-call-for-yes-vote-1.2210129) Made me go “Whaaat?” until I read the article and realised it’s talking about Church of Ireland archbishops, not Roman Catholic. And even then… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/3 "2015-05-16T22:02:50Z")
At \< 3% of the population, I’m not sure the Church of Ireland is going to affect the election that much. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/4 "2015-05-18T00:23:28Z")
Seems unlikely it won’t be a Yes. All the political parties, major businesses, and most people in public life support the Yes campaign. There’s been much talk and fretting over the quiet No contingent but it still feels like it will pass and pass comfortably at that. I haven’t seen one coherent argument against it that isn’t based upon homophobia. There’s another referendum the same day, about lowering the age of eligibility to be president to 21. This is far less likely to succeed than the SSM referendum ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/5 "2015-05-18T00:52:02Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > There’s another referendum the same day, about lowering the age of eligibility to be president to 21. This is far less likely to succeed than the SSM referendum “You’re old enough to screw me, but not old enough to screw me that much.” ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/6 "2015-05-18T02:25:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > At \< 3% of the population, I’m not sure the Church of Ireland is going to affect the election that much. The C of I has historically been overrepresented among professionals, business owners and the upper middle class though, so it’s influence is probably a bit more than sheer demographics would indicate. The Church of Ireland is interestingly enough also (I think) the only Anglican church in the developed world which is _growing_ in numbers. Unlike the Church of England or Episcopal Church. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/7 "2015-05-18T08:40:46Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The Church of Ireland is interestingly enough also (I think) the only Anglican church in the developed world which is _growing_ in numbers. Unlike the Church of England or Episcopal Church. Does this correlate with a decline in Irish Catholics? I’m wondering if there is a de facto defection effect. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/8 "2015-05-18T11:12:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Does this correlate with a decline in Irish Catholics? I’m wondering if there is a de facto defection effect. I think it is more recent migrants from Nigeria etc. joining COI congregations. It’s not unheard of to convert from Catholic to COI but not many people do it. Ireland, in general, is just becoming more secular, more in line with Western European mainstream. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/9 "2015-05-18T11:35:51Z")
If the vote goes in favour of SSM, it will be interesting - not to say amusing - to see the diehard Presbyterian Unionists of Northern Ireland left opposed - after all those years of saying the Republic was enmired in priest-ridden Catholic obscurantism interfering in people’s private lives… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/10 "2015-05-18T11:44:49Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > If the vote goes in favour of SSM, it will be interesting - not to say amusing - to see the diehard Presbyterian Unionists of Northern Ireland left opposed - after all those years of saying the Republic was enmired in priest-ridden Catholic obscurantism interfering in people’s private lives… Ooo…added bonus in watching the DUrPs’ heads explode. I hadn’t even considered the joyous possibility of enraging the Robinsons. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/11 "2015-05-18T14:08:46Z")
I does look like the Yes side will win through but the amount of lies put forward from the No side has been sickening. The vast majority of their campaigning has been crap about children, surrogacy and adoption. All issues that have basically already been address by legislation. This ref is amount recognizing same sex relationships as marriages and not civil partnerships. It’s about civil rights. I’ll be very proud to put a cross in the Yes box on Fri and hopefully help Ireland become the first country to vote SSM in by popular vote. There hasn’t been a lot to be proud of my little Island over the last 10 years or so and I so hope that fear and ignorance doesn’t win out. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/12 "2015-05-18T14:28:47Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I does look like the Yes side will win through but the amount of lies put forward from the No side has been sickening. The vast majority of their campaigning has been crap about children, surrogacy and adoption. All issues that have basically already been address by legislation. This ref is amount recognizing same sex relationships as marriages and not civil partnerships. It’s about civil rights. Yes, I’ve already run into a few people on the interwebs repeating the “COMMODIFICATION OF CHILDREN!” mantra nonstop. Such folk are impervious to reason. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/13 "2015-05-18T14:50:22Z")
[“[Thomas C]. . . is voting No: ‘because I think it’s against everything. Say there’s two men and they get a baby, who’s going to breast feed it? There’s loads of things. I’ve given it a lot of thought.’”](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mixed-views-among-dublin-mass-goers-on-same-sex-referendum-1.2215705) I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/14 "2015-05-18T15:03:21Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > This headline from the Irish Times came up on my Google feed a few days ago: > > [Archbishops and leading theologian call for Yes vote](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/archbishops-and-leading-theologian-call-for-yes-vote-1.2210129) > > Made me go “Whaaat?” until I read the article and realised it’s talking about Church of Ireland archbishops, not Roman Catholic. And even then… The theologist (a Dominican, and very much one of God’s Mastiffs from the rest of the article) is Catholic, though. One of his arguments is the same reasoning I’ve succesfully used before many times, which basically amounts to “separation of Church and State”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/15 "2015-05-18T15:17:00Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > [“[Thomas C]. . . is voting No: ‘because I think it’s against everything. Say there’s two men and they get a baby, who’s going to breast feed it? There’s loads of things. I’ve given it a lot of thought.’”](http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mixed-views-among-dublin-mass-goers-on-same-sex-referendum-1.2215705) Well, it all worked out for Ted Danson, Steve Gutenberg and Tom Selleck. Also, I find these statements made more sense if I imagine them in Father Dougal’s voice. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/16 "2015-05-18T16:23:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, I find these statements made more sense if I imagine them in Father Dougal’s voice. Hah! Yeah, that helps. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/17 "2015-05-18T17:35:22Z")
Seems the opposition is mostly centred on two men having a child. Men are either useless as fathers or prone to abusing children in the No narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/18 "2015-05-18T21:22:44Z")
Wait, Ireland is the first country to do this? I hadn’t heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/19 "2015-05-18T21:34:36Z")
It will be the first to do it successfully by plebiscite. Other countries have legalized it by legislative or judicial action. ETA: Irish folks, are these referenda binding, as in they create law? Or are they technically just a sort of mandate to make the Dáil do it? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106/20 "2015-05-18T21:49:55Z")
I believe the proposal is to ratify a constitutional amendment, not just give instructions to the Dail. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ireland-ssm-referendum-heats-up/720106.md?page=2)