# Irish and Welsh language question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 2, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603 "2004-12-02T01:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/1 "2004-12-02T01:03:28Z")
I understand that the “Irish and Welsh languages are closely related.”\* Now my question is, how closely is close? Are they mutually intelligible–can a Welsh speaker head over to Ireland and understand Irish TV and so on? Do they share a lot of words, or have similar-but-different vocabulary, or do they just share root words? When I hear the term “closely related,” I think of the Scandinavian languages (Danish/Norwegian/Swedish), which are pretty much mutually intelligible and easy to pick up–a Danish speaker can get along in the other countries and read books/watch TV/etc without translation. But maybe Irish and Welsh are more like German and English, or something. Oh, and where does Scots Gaelic fit in? Is it similar too, or different? How much? \*Quote from the program on ancient Ireland I’ve been watching. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/2 "2004-12-02T01:12:00Z")
No, they’re not closely related at all. They’re both Gaelic languages, but that term is more to do with the people than the language. There’s two lingustic branches, one covering Irish, Scottish and Manx, the other Welsh, Cornish and Breton. Naturally, there’s shared words, phrases and so on, but the two groups are different enough to be unintelligible from one another (like your ‘German and English’ analogy). Irish and Scottish Gaelic, however, are very closely related…and on the anecdotal level, my grandfather grew up learning Irish in Cork, on the southern coast, and when he moved to Donegal many years later said that he felt that he’d gone to a different country, because they all spoke Scottish. There, you really are dealing with A ‘Norwegian & Swedish’ situation. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/3 "2004-12-02T02:09:49Z")
Aha. Clearly the announcer’s idea of “closely related” is quite different from my own. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/4 "2004-12-02T03:18:08Z")
There is a split between two groups of Celtic languages that really tends to cut down on mutual intelligibility. In the “P-Celtic” languages, they have the letter p where the “Q-Celtic” languages have the sound of k. For the number five is _pump_ in Welsh (pronounced “pimp”), but _cúig_ in Irish. P-Celtic languages are Welsh, Breton, and Cornish (and probably the ancient Continental Celtic, like Gaulish). Q-Celtic languages are Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx. It has been said that Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx are three dialects that are not quite far enough apart to be separate languages; and that Breton, Cornish, and Welsh are three languages almost close enough to be dialects (but not quite close enough). The funny thing about the split in Celtic is that the same fault line runs right through the Italic languages too, lending weight to the theory that there once was an Italo-Celtic protolanguage as an early major branch of Indo-European. Latin is Q-Italic; the word for 5 in Latin is _quinque_. Oscan (now extinct) was P-Italic, and Oscan for 5 was _pumperias_. The reason one language can wind up with p- and the other k- from the same root is that these are both reflexes of Proto-Indo-European \*kw-, a labialized velar stop. A sound that combined two different qualities. _Cúig_ and _quinque_ kept the velar (“k” sound), while _pump_ and _pumperias_ kept the labial quality and made it into a labial stop (the “p” sound). When the Irish first encountered Latin, their language had no P sound, and the Latin name _Patricius_ at first was changed to something like _Cotharig_, as though Irish speakers somehow sensed the relation between their K sound and other languages’ P sound. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/5 "2004-12-02T03:35:03Z")
To slightly correct **Gorilla Man** , who I think was trying to convey accurate information but used a slightly erroneous terminology, both Welsh and Irish are _Celtic_, but belong to the two distinct branches of that family – Brythonic and Goiledic respectively. And in terms of phonemic evolution, they correspond to the P-Celtic and Q-Celtic that **Jomo Mojo** described. Scots Gaelic is a quite recent derivation from Irish, and as **JM** noted, can equally well be considered an unusual dialect or a distinct language. (Note that it is quite unintelligible to English speakers, quite different from Lallands Scottish, a very near relative or dialect of English, depending on whether you are lumper or splitter in language/dialect classification. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/6 "2004-12-02T03:39:10Z")
A minor correction in turn for **Poly** : it is Goidelic rather than Goiledic. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/7 "2004-12-02T04:02:53Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > A minor correction in turn for **Poly** : it is Goidelic rather than Goiledic. Thanks, **Roger** ; on certain terms like that, I’m slightly lysdexic! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/8 "2004-12-02T05:31:35Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Scots Gaelic is a quite recent derivation from Irish, and as **JM** noted, can equally well be considered an unusual dialect or a distinct language. Well, fifth century, so I don’t know that I’d call it “quite recent”. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/9 "2004-12-02T09:51:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > To slightly correct **Gorilla Man** , who I think was trying to convey accurate information but used a slightly erroneous terminology, both Welsh and Irish are _Celtic_ Yep, that’s what I meant to type :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/10 "2004-12-02T13:03:58Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Scots Gaelic is a quite recent derivation from Irish, and as **JM** noted, can equally well be considered an unusual dialect or a distinct language. (Note that it is quite unintelligible to English speakers, quite different from Lallands Scottish, a very near relative or dialect of English, depending on whether you are lumper or splitter in language/dialect classification. I’ve heard that there’s a move afoot to declare “Scottish” a language rather than a dialect of English. Is the Robert Burns type of Scottish (“I dinna ken” for “I don’t know”), and if so, is that what you’re calling Lallands Scottish? Also, is that language (or dialect) derived from Scots Gaelic? I’m descended from a highland clan. If I wanted to study a language that “took me back to my roots,” would it be Celtic or Gaelic. I know if I went back far enough it would take me to the Vikings (a rather unpleasant chap named Thorfinn Skullcleaver, according to the clan museum), but I’m more interested in what my ancestors were speaking in the 12th through 16th centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/11 "2004-12-02T13:40:50Z")
Bah. I posted that too early in the morning, before the brain was fully engaged. A quick search of the Scottish Government Web Site shows that Scots (which I presume is the same as “Lalland Scottish”?) is already [recognized](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/pages/news/2002/05/p_SEtc009.aspx) as a language. > [@](#): > > The Scots language is recognised officially under the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages, which the UK Government signed in 2000. The Web site for the Scottish Parliament is mostly in English, but also has pages in [Scots](http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm), [Gàidhlig](http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/gaelic/index.htm) (Scots Gaelic), and other languages. I learned a lot from [this thread](http://www.scotland.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=3218&pagenumber=1) on [Scotland.com](http://Scotland.com) as well. Despite all of that, I’m still not clear on what my ancestors spoke, although it sounds like it was Gàidhlig. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/12 "2004-12-02T13:49:33Z")
Wombat: Scots, or Lallans (can’t quite remember the spelling) is not Celtic, though it’s spoken by Celts (obviously) and has, IIRC, a good deal more Celtic influence than English does. It’s English’s closest linguistic relative, descended from the same linguistic roots as English. This, of course, depends on its being classified as a separate language, which (given that I can’t understand a bit of it when I hear it) I’m inclined to do. Scottish Gaelic, on the other hand, is a Celtic language not widely spoken in Scotland. It’s important to realize they’re separate languages. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/13 "2004-12-02T14:12:52Z")
Scots (not Scottish, which generally means Scottish Gaelic) is distinct from English, through having a greater northern European background, and the absence of much of the Latin and French influences of English. The [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language) article is a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/14 "2004-12-02T14:45:01Z")
**Gorillaman** , the Irish spoken in Donegal (on the north west coast of Ireland) is a different dialect to the Munster Irish your grandfather spoke, but it’s not Scottish Gaelic. Irish children are taught either Munster or Donegal Irish at school, depending on where they are, and which kind of Irish their teacher speaks, the dialects are mutually intelligble though, the differences are more about accent and word choice. Admittedly, Donegal Irish speakers have an Ulster accent, which shares similar sounds with a Scottish accent, but it’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/15 "2004-12-02T14:54:34Z")
No, I know it’s not Scottish - my Grandfather simply observed that it seemed to have as much in common with Scottish as with Munster Irish. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/16 "2004-12-02T18:00:37Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, fifth century, so I don’t know that I’d call it “quite recent”. It’s only been recognised as a distinct language rather than a dialect of Irish for a few hundred years or so. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/17 "2004-12-02T18:49:39Z")
My brain hurts now. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/18 "2004-12-02T19:05:56Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > It’s only been recognised as a distinct language rather than a dialect of Irish for a few hundred years or so. Right, but it’s been spoken in Scotland since the 5th century. Whether it’s a dialect or a distinct language is political just as much as linguistic (just as whether Scots is a dialect of English or a distinct language is). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/19 "2004-12-02T20:45:27Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > My brain hurts now. Welcome to the world of nationalist politics of the British Isles 😉 But to very basically summarise, a language can sound like another but be considered separate along political lines, as with Scandinavian languages…or it can be quite disparate but catagorised as a single language, as with the variants within Irish that **Irishgirl** and I have touched on…Scots is somewhere on the border, with some acknowledgement as a language (ie the Scottish Parliament’s approval), and many linguists placing is as a dialect. (It’s no more different from ‘standard’ English that a strong Yorkshire, Norfolk or West County dialect.) Wow, my summary needs summarising 😃 … yep, that program was talking a crock’o’shit. Out of all the languages of north-western Europe, they picked two that are thoroughly and completely different, and claimed they’re related. Heh heh. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603/20 "2004-12-02T23:25:45Z")
i want to know why we don’t have cool surnames like skullcleaver. that has much more umph than jensen. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-and-welsh-language-question/277603.md?page=2)