# Irish company invents free energy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419 "2006-08-20T03:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mrrealtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@mrrealtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrrealtime)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/41 "2006-08-29T23:48:29Z")
Couldnt they just be robbing energy from another dimension? Mabey they’re causing the eqivalent of wanton destruction on the poor 7 dimentional folks. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/42 "2006-08-30T02:27:07Z")
I thought the podcast interview on [http://www.steornwatch.com](http://www.steornwatch.com) was pretty interesting. The CEO actually gives well-reasoned answers as to their current behavior (i.e., “why don’t they just hook it up to a car and make a kajillion dollars … DUH!”). Namely, you need to look at it from the viewpoint of a small company. A small company that has no massive manufacturing, PR, and sales capabilities. A small company that is trying to make money off of licensing the patent. He, quite realistically, realizes that as soon as he releases this to market, dozens of other companies will reverse-engineer it, and create their own versions of the product (either legally, by finding a method that doesn’t violate the patent, or illegally). As soon as that happens, his little company’s share of this magnetic whatsamajigger pie is going to shrink to nothing. They aren’t geared up to just take it to market themselves–they’d be crushed immediately by some huge competitor with bigger manufacturing and marketing capabilities. So, a reasonable course of action, for making a reasonable profit, is to try to patent the invention and license the patent for as long as it lasts. Smaller commitment (than building a factory, etc.) on his company’s part, reasonable compensation, and no need to worry about the end manuacturing/sales/marketing. They’re gearing it toward powering mobile products (phones, etc.) because those things have a 2-year production cycle, vs. a 10-25-year production cycle for a car or power generating station. Pretty smart, from a ROI standpoint. His only problem: The invention he wants to patent is, by definition, unpatentable (since “perpetual motion machines” are excluded). So how can his company make money off the patent if he can’t get a patent in the first place? Well, ask the scientific community to review it, certify that it does what he claims, and thereby force, through weight of evidence, the patent office to allow it. But there are more problems–no one will touch it. They’ll say he’s a wacko or a con artist. (To wit, this board.) Furthermore, he can’t just publish info. about it in the public domain for everyone to judge its validity–that will create unpatented prior art that could jeopardize his future patent. His company approaches several scientists privately, makes them sign standard NDAs, and has them verify the company’s claims. But still, no one is too eager to put their reputation behind it–no one wants to be the next Fleischmann and Pons. So the company pulls a stunt in order to generate interest and seek out the few people who might be (a) qualified to evaluate the product (b) skeptical enough at the outset to provide a convincing argument for the patent office (c) willing to publish their findings, with their name on it. And people are complaining that Steorn is picking its researchers? So what? Sounds like every single drug trial I’ve ever heard of in the USA, where the companies pay for the trials. All in all, I was impressed with how practical and cynical he was about his company’s prospects of being believed and, even if believed, of making money from their discovery. He’s right–few innovators make the bucks from their inventions. It’s usually the next generation that rakes in the real dough. The whole thing sounds like an ideal homework assignment for an MBA course. “You have a small company with few resources. Your engineers discover something valuable, but inherently unpatentable. As soon as your discovery becomes public knowledge, you will surely be beaten in the market by larger competitors. What’s the best way for you to make money from this discovery?” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/43 "2006-08-30T04:05:26Z")
I suspect the Hanso Foundation. But it’s only a suspicion. I briefly talk about this here: [Steorn and... Hanso? - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=386031) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/44 "2006-08-30T04:22:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Namely, you need to look at it from the viewpoint of a small company. A small company that has no massive manufacturing, PR, and sales capabilities. A small company that is trying to make money off of licensing the patent. That’s all the more reason why they _should_ be driving around in a car powered by the thing. They don’t need massive manufacturing; they just need to make one prototype (and if they can’t make a prototype, then what the heck is this company doing?). One prototype, that actually worked, would be better PR than all the slick webpages and podcasts in the world. And for just one prototype, they wouldn’t have to let anyone else know how it works, or enable anyone to reverse-engineer it. I had entertained the possibility that these folks were just themselves deluded, but if they’re trying to pass off explanations like that, there’s no doubt in my mind that this is a pure scam. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/45 "2006-08-30T04:42:08Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] The whole thing sounds like an ideal homework assignment for an MBA course. “You have a small company with few resources. Your engineers discover something valuable, but inherently unpatentable. As soon as your discovery becomes public knowledge, you will surely be beaten in the market by larger competitors. What’s the best way for you to make money from this discovery?” [/QUOTE] I would hope that anyone in an MBA course who turned in an answer consisting of “we’ll behave exactly like con artist whack jobs” would flunk the test. **Chronos** is correct. There have to be a hundred easier and more legitimate ways to test a new technology other than proclaiming it to be perpetual motion that violates the laws of physics. He mentions one. Let me toss out another. Every discovery comes from somewhere. A paper trail of earlier steps toward the final product could be produced, published in peer-reviewed journals, and examined by the scientific community. Apparently they have done none of this. They are behaving exactly like scammers, making claims exactly like scammers, and ducking hard proof exactly like scammers. It would be irresponsible for anyone at this point to not assume that they are scammers. They could have avoided this appearance by working with scientists quietly and behind the scenes. They chose not to do so. Why? My conclusion is that they are scammers. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/46 "2006-08-30T07:29:05Z")
My understanding is :- 1. They are a reputable company 2. They spent £75,000 ($150,000) on an advertisement in the Economist 3. They have already patented (submitted) components 4. They claim it produces enough to power a mobile 'phone (which is not much) 5. They discovered the phenomenon when making a miniature wind generator to power Video cameras We are swimming in a soup of energy, anything above -273c is ‘energised’, also we are sitting on a huge dynamo. If they were a bunch of dork like lunatics, then it would be easy to dismiss their claims out of hand, as it is they have deliberately set themselves up for debunking, also the publicity is a form of ‘patenting’. It could be that the phenomenon that they discovered is leaching of an overhead power line, or even from the electrical circuits in their building, but I guess they will have tested that possibility. Hmm, it could be picking up microwaves. My take is that they are sane individuals who have observed a strange phenomenon and want to establish ownership. I can’t see any signs of a scam, since I can’t see how they could make any cash if it is thoroughly debunked in the next few weeks. It may be that they have found a way of receiving man made energy, but even so that is quite a development. I consider it highly likely that we will find a way of tapping into existing energy, one method is to walk into a Swiss valley and start yodelling - in winter one would have a good chance of setting of an avalanche. It could be some sort of scientific hoax - like they get scientists to confirm their findings, and then pull the rug - but I’m inclined to believe that they have hit on something, although it may not be what they say it is. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/47 "2006-08-30T07:34:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] Forget manned flight or semiconductor electronics. Forget relativity and quantum mechanics. What this would do is imply that _physics changes its laws_. [/QUOTE] Oh, absolutely; I was thinking more of the social impact; free energy, or something that near-as-dammit resembles it, would change just about everything in human civilisation - not necessarily radically in all cases, but it would impact all areas of human activity. But yes, “Energy cannot be created or destroyed, _except sometimes, it can_” would require a massive, sweeping, revision, no, _cascade of revisions_ to the whole of physical science. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/48 "2006-08-30T07:37:30Z")
Also, all pronouncements of “But if they were scammers, they would/wouldn’t be doing/saying X” are automatically invalid; whatever dead-giveaway signs you can imagine, _they can also imagine, and avoid_. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/49 "2006-08-30T08:39:06Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Also, all pronouncements of “But if they were scammers, they would/wouldn’t be doing/saying X” are automatically invalid; whatever dead-giveaway signs you can imagine, _they can also imagine, and avoid_. [/QUOTE] Except… they’ve also avoided asking for money. That one is puzzling, since money tends to be scammers’ raison d’être. Unless they’re just publicity whores. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/50 "2006-08-30T08:55:57Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Except… they’ve also avoided asking for money. [/QUOTE] Yet. Or they could, as you say, just be publicity whores, or this could be a marketing campaign for something else. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/51 "2006-08-30T09:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] But yes, “Energy cannot be created or destroyed, _except sometimes, it can_” would require a massive, sweeping, revision, no, _cascade of revisions_ to the whole of physical science. [/QUOTE] Physical _science_ couldn’t even exist, since the whole point of science is that it makes testable predictions. If you don’t know what the laws of physics will be in the future you can’t predict. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/52 "2006-08-30T09:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] But still, no one is too eager to put their reputation behind it–no one wants to be the next Fleischmann and Pons. [/QUOTE] F&P didn’t want to end the field of physics in its entirety. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/53 "2006-08-30T09:58:10Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] They are … ducking hard proof exactly like scammers. [/QUOTE] “If it ducks like a quack…”? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/54 "2006-08-30T10:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] Physical _science_ couldn’t even exist, since the whole point of science is that it makes testable predictions. If you don’t know what the laws of physics will be in the future you can’t predict. [/QUOTE] The _sometimes_ wouldn’t necessarily have to be _unpredictable_. Consider: “Energy can only be created or destroyed under X specific set of circumstances” - it’s false, I’m sure, but it’s also testable. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/55 "2006-08-30T10:06:10Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] My understanding is :- 1. They are a reputable company 2. They spent £75,000 ($150,000) on an advertisement in the Economist 3. They have already patented (submitted) components 4. They claim it produces enough to power a mobile 'phone (which is not much) 5. They discovered the phenomenon when making a miniature wind generator to power Video cameras [/QUOTE] I claim they’re full of shit. Claims are claims, not peer-reviewed, repeatable evidence. Besides, anyone who’s watched a con-artist movie (yah, yah, movies != reality) knows that for big long cons you’ve gotta front some money of your own. > [@](#): > > We are swimming in a soup of energy, anything above -273c is ‘energised’, also we are sitting on a huge dynamo. (a) They already said it doesn’t reduce the ambient temperature. (b) I already explained that this would violate the laws of thermodynamics if that _was_ how it worked. > [@](#): > > If they were a bunch of dork like lunatics, then it would be easy to dismiss their claims out of hand, as it is they have deliberately set themselves up for debunking, also the publicity is a form of ‘patenting’. They _are_ a bunch of lunatics, but most people are so radically _ignorant_ of the consequences of what they’re saying that they’ll swallow any such malarkey. Besides, they haven’t set themselves up for anything, since _they_ are hand-picking the team that will “test” them. I say The Amazing Randi already has a team picked out. Sure it’s intended for claims of the paranormal, but this will do just fine to justify their retainers. > [@](#): > > It may be that they have found a way of receiving man made energy, but even so that is quite a development. If they’re leeching it via induction that’s not much of a development. People do it all the time out near the high-voltage wires to steal from the power companies. > [@](#): > > It could be some sort of scientific hoax - like they get scientists to confirm their findings, and then pull the rug - but I’m inclined to believe that they have hit on something, although it may not be what they say it is. They’ve hit on a way to get gullible angel investors to believe they’re getting in on the ground floor of something. Further, they play into the cultural scheme of “putting one over on” all them science guys what think they’s so smrt. “Oh, look how persecuted we are!” Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/56 "2006-08-30T10:11:18Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] The _sometimes_ wouldn’t necessarily have to be _unpredictable_. Consider: “Energy can only be created or destroyed under X specific set of circumstances” - it’s false, I’m sure, but it’s also testable. [/QUOTE] nonono, you miss my point: Noether’s theorem comes into play here. Conservation of mass-energy is exactly equivalent to time-translation-invariance of the laws of physics. We use the fact that the laws of physics are the same to all observers at all times in every single step of physics, and it underlies the assumption that we _can_ predict future events. We observe this consistency in our daily lives at every waking moment. I’m not talking about just overhauling physics here. I’m talking about _razing_ it to the ground and starting from scratch. _Everything_ we know is wrong if we don’t have local conservation of energy-momentum. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/57 "2006-08-30T10:13:23Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Except… they’ve also avoided asking for money. That one is puzzling, since money tends to be scammers’ raison d’être. Unless they’re just publicity whores. [/QUOTE] Angel investors. Who needs to explicitly ask for money in a world where people exist who didn’t learn their lesson from ePetRock? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/58 "2006-08-30T10:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] nonono, you miss my point: Noether’s theorem comes into play here. Conservation of mass-energy is exactly equivalent to time-translation-invariance of the laws of physics. We use the fact that the laws of physics are the same to all observers at all times in every single step of physics, and it underlies the assumption that we _can_ predict future events. We observe this consistency in our daily lives at every waking moment. I’m not talking about just overhauling physics here. I’m talking about _razing_ it to the ground and starting from scratch. _Everything_ we know is wrong if we don’t have local conservation of energy-momentum. [/QUOTE] I understand, but that doesn’t mean a replacement model couldn’t be constructed that was at least coherent (not that I fancy the task, and not that I underestimate the severity of such a thing). ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/59 "2006-08-30T13:04:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] “If it ducks like a quack…”? [/QUOTE] I say! Well played, there, well played. Where’s the applause smiley when you need it? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/60 "2006-08-30T14:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] That’s all the more reason why they _should_ be driving around in a car powered by the thing. They don’t need massive manufacturing; they just need to make one prototype (and if they can’t make a prototype, then what the heck is this company doing?). One prototype, that actually worked, would be better PR than all the slick webpages and podcasts in the world. And for just one prototype, they wouldn’t have to let anyone else know how it works, or enable anyone to reverse-engineer it. I had entertained the possibility that these folks were just themselves deluded, but if they’re trying to pass off explanations like that, there’s no doubt in my mind that this is a pure scam. [/QUOTE] Right. I can see Chronos’s reaction now: “Oh, so they’ve been driving this car around for a year now without refueling it? Right. It’s a scam. A clever scam. They won’t let anyone take the thing apart and examine it, so how can we know they’re not lying to us? How do we know the interior isn’t hiding some RTG or clever batteries or something …?” Please tell me exactly how they could build a prototype that would be (a) convincing to the public and (b) would resist all attempts at reverse-engineering [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419.md?page=4)