# Irish company invents free energy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419 "2006-08-20T03:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/81 "2006-08-30T21:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] Actually, that would be great: an a/c unit that ran itself on the heat it removed from the air. Except it doesn’t work like that. It would have to be _moving_ the heat energy, which takes work to counteract the second law of thermodynamics. In short: the way you’re thinking of putting them into compliance with the first law violates the second. [/QUOTE] That was exactly my point. They clearly understand so little of physics that they want to assure people that they’re not just satisfying some “lesser” feat, even though the lesser feat is just as remarkable as what they claim. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/82 "2006-08-30T22:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Meanwhile I reckon that they will have enough offers of serious money (and legislation) to turn the thing into something bigger than Microsoft. It could be a prank, but it is not a con. - there is no way they can make money out of it if it were a con. [/QUOTE] No; you must be right; there’s just no way they can make money out of it if people offer them serious money. What the hell are they thinking? ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/83 "2006-08-30T23:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] No; you must be right; there’s just no way they can make money out of it if people offer them serious money. What the hell are they thinking? [/QUOTE] Consider: The serious money is ‘invested’ in more R&D. Publish slick brochures regarding the progress made to date. Promise that the end is in sight as soon as additional R&D is funded and the work is continued.. A year later repeat the same pitch. All kinds of questionable ‘green energy’ projects get gov’t funding this way. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/84 "2006-08-30T23:27:09Z")
[QUOTE=spingears] All kinds of questionable ‘green energy’ projects get gov’t funding this way. [/QUOTE] Can you give two specific examples, with any cites? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/85 "2006-08-30T23:54:13Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Can you give two specific examples, with any cites? [/QUOTE] Tokamak fusion? Still waiting on that. Funny how it’s always “50 years away.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/86 "2006-08-31T03:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Tokamak fusion? Still waiting on that. Funny how it’s always “50 years away.” I think he was asking for something that gets government funding. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/87 "2006-08-31T07:36:35Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] No; you must be right; there’s just no way they can make money out of it if people offer them serious money. What the hell are they thinking? [/QUOTE] It seems like a peculiar sort of con to me. Normally people set things up in such a way that they can get away with the proceeds, that or the scam is open ended (they think). They are going for the maximum publicity, and are easily identifiable. I’m quite sure that the Guardia’s Fraud Squad is already keeping an eye on them. They are touting to hard nosed and sceptical scientists, not hicks, although I’m sure that they have had plenty of offers from hicks. The best suggestion I’ve seen here is that a disgruntled employee is conducting a hoax - possibly one that has got out of hand. My guess is that they have found something, and possibly misinterpreted what is going on. Although it is possible that their premises are built on an old land fill, and escaping gasses have driven them stark raving mad. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/88 "2006-08-31T08:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] It seems like a peculiar sort of con to me. Normally people set things up in such a way that they can get away with the proceeds, that or the scam is open ended (they think). [/quote] If they think they can string along the ‘research phase’ long enough, then they might not be worried, or maybe they’re planning to liquidate the funds and dissapear to some warm place with no extradition treaty. > [@](#): > > They are going for the maximum publicity, and are easily identifiable. > I’m quite sure that the Guardia’s Fraud Squad is already keeping an eye on them. Lets hope so; not sure whether claiming you can defy the fundamental laws of physics is covered by the remit of fraud squads. > [@](#): > > They are touting to hard nosed and sceptical scientists, not hicks, although I’m sure that they have had plenty of offers from hicks. Yeah, but as far as I can tell, they’re controlling the selection process - is there any indication that they are actually _engaging_ the hard-nosed (and relevantly-qualified)scientists to work on the project? Yes, it doesn’t look like a scam, but the point is, _it wouldn’t, would it?_ - that’s how scams work - by appearing plausible and charmingly innocent. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/89 "2006-08-31T08:10:51Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] My guess is that they have found something, and possibly misinterpreted what is going on. [/QUOTE] Ditto. And had enough commercial sense to engage spin doctors to handle the alleged discovery. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/90 "2006-08-31T09:27:40Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] It seems like a peculiar sort of con to me. Normally people set things up in such a way that they can get away with the proceeds, that or the scam is open ended (they think). [/quote] This scam is open ended. They’ll just take investment, claim to spend it on never ending further research, and if absolutely necessary admit they were wrong (but never admit they knew all along that their device didn’t work). > [@](#): > > They are touting to hard nosed and sceptical scientists, not hicks, although I’m sure that they have had plenty of offers from hicks. Cite? Firstly for the proposition that they are touting to scientists at all, and secondly for the proposition they really are touting hard nosed and sceptical scientists. They are not touting to scientists, they are just trying to obtain some validation from scientists (no doubt to gain investor credibility). What (beyond perhaps a rather charming faith in the good nature of your fellow man) makes you think they will actually choose hard nosed skeptics from the thousand they have to choose from? You will note also that their webpage which supposedly gives details about “the challenge” gives _no details whatsoever_ as to what the “jury” will be permitted to do. For all we know, they will be permitted to sit in a lecture theatre while some hokey demonstration is performed with all the openness of a David Copperfield illusion. If I was keen to generate credibility, and I really believed in my product, I would state as part of the challenge that the “jury” would be permitted to design their own tests. But instead there is nothing beyond a load of marketing speak which says nothing at all. Let’s not have any illusions here: they are not claiming efficiency very slightly beyond 100% at the 4th decimal place, or something. According to the Guardian article, we are talking about 285% or even 400%! That’s not hard to measure. Nor is it the type of minor bump explicable in terms of unintentional leaching of energy from the environment. These guys are either massively, massively incompetent, or scammers. Furthermore, you seem to be ignoring their claims that they have had their invention validated already. They say that they have no less than “eight independent validations electrical engineers and academics with multiple PhDs from world-class universities”. So eight independant engineers and academics are also deluded? Not only that, but they say that they have gone into partnership with “a European micro-generator company to develop prototypes”. You don’t go into partnership without some due diligence, particularly when your partner-to-be claims to have invented something that is inherently incredible. So the engineers etc at this European micro-generator company have all been fooled as well? Your “lone wolf employee” theory also has no credibility for the same reason. Still further, their whole Pons & Fleischmann excuse is just lame. Sure, after Pons & Fleischmann no reputable scientist is going to unreservedly leap out and say “Steorn’s machine definitely works, our understanding of thermodynamics is dead”. But of the supposed eight independent electrical engineers and academics with multiple PhDs from world-class universities, surely at least one would be prepared to say at least _something_, however reserved and cautious. Heck, it’d increase my willingness to believe in this device about a thousand fold even if someone independant would say “I’ve seen the device and performed some basic tests on it. Ultimately I remain sceptical and there is more testing to be done, but at least at the moment I am not able to explain current test results”. Instead what we have is a smoke machine powered by a couple of unknown guys, with no independant sightings of fire whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/91 "2006-08-31T11:48:10Z")
Scam or no scam, their website is brilliant, works just fine on my oldest machine with Java, JavaScript and that AX rubbish turned off. This is not relevant, but years ago, in about 1982 I went to a meeting with Nico Rogerson, the second bit of Dewe Rogerson - who are the publicity agents. One of my brothers is an extremely talented musician. He and a Russian pal of his came up with the idea of making pop videos for free (Michael Jackson’s video was recently released and had cost a fortune) - they had worked out the supply channels and had some very good ideas how to sell them. It sounds old hat nowadays, but it was a pretty unusual proposition in 1982. For various reasons that I’ll not go into, those guys knew N Rogerson, and he asked them to present the case to a potential backer who was a BBC producer. They whistled me up, I listened to their spiel, jotted down the numbers and went to a computer store in Tottenham Court Rd where I hijacked an Apple II and ran off some projections. I was impressed, fixed costs were minimal, marginal profit added up on a minute market penetration - and I spotted something that was a potential jackpot. - it was guaranteed to make good money, with a side chance of making a fortune. Anyway I donned my Ice Cream suit, and went down to the meeting with my brother and S. It was pretty clear that the ‘backer’ was a stooge and that it was N Rogerson who was the potential angel. When I showed them the financial projections they got incredibly interested. It all came to nothing, partly I suspect for reasons that I would not like to publish here - but I still look back on it as ‘the one that got away’ Now I know that Dewe Rogerson sold out a few years back, but I’ll bet that N Rogerson has been wondering about that ‘video fish’. If this is a hoax, then it would be a ‘demonstration’ by Citigate Dewe Rogerson - there have been successful ‘awareness campaigns’ before, the one I remember used bill boards - I’ve always rated posters as a cheap reliable medium. I am placing a tentative bet that it is CDR drumming up business - I’m amazed that it took so long for the penny to drop ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/92 "2006-08-31T16:56:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] [In response to there being no financial gain from this.] This is naivete, pure and simple. It has been done before and it will be done again. [/QUOTE] There are thirty share holders in this private corporation. A sufficiently savvy selling job of the alledged technology could indeed generate significant profits for those thirty by taking the corporation public. While I’m generally inclined to accept the idea that the principals are mistaken in good faith, it remains naive, as you said, to suggest there is no potential for profit from the claim being made. Given the small size of the shareholdership, if that’s even remotely a word, I suspect it’s group think, rather than fraud, that is powering this adventure. It’s funny that they’re doing it with magnets…maybe they’re relying on unwinding the curl of the magnetic field: > [@](#): > > Mainstream scientists scoff at the notion of unwinding the curl of a magnetic field. They forget that one of the synonyms for the technical term “curl” is “rotation”, a term dating back to the early history of field theory when scientists still had a tenuous grip on reality. Indeed fields without curl, such as electric and gravitational fields, are called “irrotational”, which means they can’t produce rotation, and would be useless for achieving our goals. > > … > > But in this failure lies hope. We must alter the geometry. We must warp space itself to our purposes. That’s what our device will do. It is a reverse curling-iron for the matrix of space. > > So our machine shall be in a box (black if you like) that contains no moving parts and no electrical circuits. It takes the curl out of any magnetic field in the vicinity (the earth’s field, if you like). This process induces a torque in any nearby ferrous material, such as a wheel, causing it to turn. [4] Our machine need not touch the wheel, but it should be bolted down so that it exerts only reactionless forces on the wheel. Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/93 "2006-08-31T17:09:13Z")
[QUOTE=js\_africanus] Given the small size of the shareholdership, if that’s even remotely a word, I suspect it’s group think, rather than fraud, that is powering this adventure. [/QUOTE] Ultimately, whether it’s stupidity or malice behind these statements, I’m comfortable getting up in arms over this. Whether _these_ people are playing three-Joule monte or not, other groups _do_ play off the public’s lack of basic scientific knowledge and ice the cake by appealing to a general view of scientists as some sort of insular self-perpetuating priesthood. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Entropy cannot be globally reduced. These are basic facts and hammering on them in this discussion is part and parcel of fighting ignorance. This isn’t like figuring out [what to call someone with a bachelor’s degree](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=385641) or some other such nonsense that people with too much time on their hands think about. People can and do get taken in over this sort of thing. They lose their lives’ savings. While it’s all well and good to toy with random trivia, this thread is exactly why we need to be fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/94 "2006-08-31T17:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > We must warp space itself to our purposes They want to warp space? Why didn’t they say so right at the beginning? That changes everything! As a Trekkie, I’m going to sign up immediately, so I can have my own Warp Drive in a few years! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/95 "2006-08-31T17:23:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] People can and do get taken in over this sort of thing. They lose their lives’ savings. [/QUOTE] Ayup, by doing things like sinking their money into an IPO for a firm that the scientific community is trying to suppress. I’ve no issues with being up in arms over this. These guys should know better. I hope you enjoyed the second link, by the way, it’s good fun. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/96 "2006-08-31T18:22:03Z")
[QUOTE=js\_africanus] It’s funny that they’re doing it with magnets…maybe they’re relying on unwinding the curl of the magnetic field: [/quote] From elsewhere on that page: > [@that page](#): > > We know that perpetual motion machines must be possible. God wouldn’t have put us on earth and commanded us to use and exploit its resources if those resources would run out and destroy us prematurely, before God himself destroys us at the final Armageddon. God surely must have provided the means to sustain humanity long enough to ensure its final destruction by his own hand. After all, the first time God wiped out most of mankind, in the great flood, did He not provide miraculous suspensions of laws of physics, to allow the survival of humankind? Surely the laws of physics as we now understand them can likewise be suspended or modified if the need arises. And that need is upon us. With sufficient faith we will find the answer. [2] Oh my… (Before submitting this post, though, I re-read the page and saw that it’s a pardoy of some kind. (“With Ken’s permission we have edited this document to fit the dimensions of reader’s minds and attention span”) That’s a relief.) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/97 "2006-08-31T19:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Can you give two specific examples, with any cites? [/QUOTE] [\*\* desalinization/hurricane tower? \*\*](http://www.clubdesargonautes.org/otec/vol/vol9-4-1.htm) Abandonded with out completion. [\*\* Ocean Thermal-Energy Conversion \*\*](http://www.answers.com/topic/ocean-thermal-energy-conversion) Another page, long, links. While not exactly the same as the Georn project these are gov’t funded projects that go nowhere fast. Expend a lot of taxpayer’s money and provide only a public sense that “Something is being done” to solve the energy crisis. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/98 "2006-08-31T20:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] …I re-read the page and saw that it’s a pardoy of some kind. [/QUOTE] 😃 It’s wonderful, ain’t it? The equivocation where he used “rotation” as a synonym for the technical term “curl” was absolutely brilliant. Once you understand that mistake, you can understand the problem with very nearly every attempt to discredit economics that I’ve encountered, and that includes those by people who should know better. The page is included in the Museum of Unworkable Devices, which many here will probably enjoy. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/99 "2006-08-31T21:43:46Z")
[QUOTE=spingears] While not exactly the same as the Steorn project [/QUOTE] Better examples of scams by individuals: [\*\* Tom Bearden & The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (MEG)\*\*](http://www.cheniere.org/) [\*\* Analysis Tom Bearden \*\*](http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread9268.html) [\*\* The Neal Tank \*\*](http://aircaraccess.com/nealtank.htm) [\*\* Bearden’s Books \*\*](http://www.cheniere.org/sales/online-store.htm) Everyone need a copy of “Energy From the Vacuum” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/100 "2006-08-31T22:14:36Z")
This company’s just talking blarney. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419.md?page=6)