# Irish company invents free energy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 20, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419 "2006-08-20T03:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/101 "2006-08-31T22:22:29Z")
[QUOTE=js\_africanus] Given the small size of the shareholdership, if that’s even remotely a word, I suspect it’s group think, rather than fraud, that is powering this adventure. [/QUOTE] Did you really just use the term ‘group think’? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/102 "2006-09-01T00:43:22Z")
[QUOTE=js\_africanus] Given the small size of the shareholdership, if that’s even remotely a word, I suspect it’s group think, rather than fraud, that is powering this adventure. [/QUOTE] So the eight independant engineers & scientists, and the European partner: are they part of the group think (how does that work exactly)? Or are Steorn lying about the existence of the eight independant engineers & scientists, and the European partner, in which case is it not fraud? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/103 "2006-09-01T09:55:33Z")
If it is not a hoax by Dewe Rogersen, which I think is very possible, then it is highly unlikely that they would be involved in a straight fraud. They are a highly respected PR/Advertising setup, under Thatcher they handled the Privatization of a number of Nationalized industries. They are very respectable company. [http://www.citigatedr.co.uk/history.html](http://www.citigatedr.co.uk/history.html) > [@](#): > > Dewe Rogerson had pioneered the use of public relations in retail share offers in its work for the UK Government’s privatisation programme and subsequently for overseas governments. Its international expertise combined with Citigate’s strength in the UK made CDR a formidable force. > > Today, Citigate Dewe Rogerson continues to innovate; developing new ways to communicate using technology and the skills of its people. No way would they be involved in a financial scam. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/104 "2006-09-01T14:09:12Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Did you really just use the term ‘group think’? [/QUOTE] Is that a problem? > [@Princhester](#): > > So the eight independant engineers & scientists, and the European partner: are they part of the group think (how does that work exactly)? Or are Steorn lying about the existence of the eight independant engineers & scientists, and the European partner, in which case is it not fraud? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. A group that has worked itself up into a state of belief can easily take negative results and turn them into confirmation. I know this because I’ve personally seen it happen. It’s perfectly reasonable to accept that they’ve asked people to look at it, got negative responses and forced them to fit their beliefs, and left the observers in the position of having to distance themselves from the company. Yeah, it’s fucking stupid to think that you’ve invented perpetual motion by rearranging some magnets. That doesn’t imply fraud is the best explanation for stupidity. Stupidity happens. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/105 "2006-09-01T14:31:34Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] No way would they be involved in a financial scam. [/QUOTE] You better send them a bunch of money then. Let us know how it works out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/106 "2006-09-01T15:39:22Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] You better send them a bunch of money then. Let us know how it works out for you. [/QUOTE] You’re missing the point that _NOBODY IS ASKING FOR ANY MONEY_. Which is what makes it a pretty silly scam, if it is a scam. If they were asking for investors, then sure, scam alert, but they specifically say that they will not accept any money from would-be investors > [@The Guardian article](#): > > And, until their claims have been assessed by the jury, McCarthy says they won’t be accepting any investor offers. So if this is a hoax, it would appear not to be a money-making scheme; Walshe says the Economist ad alone cost £75,000. OK, so you could say they are going to “prove” that it works with a fake jury, then fleece the investors, but it seems a very roundabout way of doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/107 "2006-09-01T16:17:49Z")
> [@](#): > > According to McCarthy and Walshe, the marketing manager, there have been no fewer than eight independent validations of their work conducted by electrical engineers and academics “with multiple PhDs” from world-class universities. But none of them will talk to me, even off the record. As being one of the few people on the SDMB, perhaps the only one, who has been hired professionally to inspect perpetual motion and “mysterious energy” devices, I have this non-judgmental thing to say. The people I would want to inspect it are _magicians_, not people with “multiple PhDs”( :rolleyes: ) - Penn and Teller, Copperfield, Blaine, pick your favourite illusionist. Because in every case I was involved with where my company was actually allowed to inspect the device, some slight of hand was involved, not calculational trickery. Disclaimer: I’m not judging this device or its claims in specific. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/108 "2006-09-01T16:27:05Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] If they were asking for investors, then sure, scam alert, but they specifically say that they will not accept any money from would-be investors [/QUOTE] Uh huh. And if some venture capitalist rings them up and says, “Hey, I know you say you aren’t soliciting investment, but I’d really like to get in on this, any way we can, y’know, make an arrangement,” what do you suppose they’ll say? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/109 "2006-09-01T16:55:58Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] So the eight independant engineers & scientists, and the European partner: are they part of the group think (how does that work exactly)? Or are Steorn lying about the existence of the eight independant engineers & scientists, and the European partner, in which case is it not fraud? [/QUOTE] The eight independent engineers and scientists are not known to exist. They are all “off the record.” -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/110 "2006-09-01T19:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] As being one of the few people on the SDMB, perhaps the only one, who has been hired professionally to inspect perpetual motion and “mysterious energy” devices, I have this non-judgmental thing to say. The people I would want to inspect it are _magicians_, not people with “multiple PhDs”( :rolleyes: ) - Penn and Teller, Copperfield, Blaine, pick your favourite illusionist. Because in every case I was involved with where my company was actually allowed to inspect the device, some slight of hand was involved, not calculational trickery. Disclaimer: I’m not judging this device or its claims in specific. [/QUOTE] I think this makes an excellent and important point. If you want to know **whether or not** a perpetual motion device is feasible, or if a “mysterious energy” device is **possible or not** given a set of physical claims for its operation, then a physicist might be a good person to ask. Heck, as demonstrated in this thread, anyone with a basic understanding of the laws of thermodynamics should know that there is “no free lunch” and “you can’t break even” (lay statements of the first two [laws of thermodynamics](http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/biology/biolchem/thermod.html)). Skepticism is the logical default position when faced with any fantastic claim. Now, if one wanted to know the **how** of a specific device, then certainly professional tricksters are the right ones to call in. Likewise, the _how_ of the scam is open to debate, but the truthfullness of their claims must be viewed as a _reeeaaaaly_ long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/111 "2006-09-01T19:21:26Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] You’re missing the point that _NOBODY IS ASKING FOR ANY MONEY_. [/QUOTE] Yet. There are two possibilities. One: they will never ask for any money, at which point they will fold up and you will never hear from them again, and everything they (and presumably others)have sunk into the scheme thus far will be lost. Two: they will ask for money to continue their research. Which is more likely? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/112 "2006-09-01T22:37:59Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] OK, so you could say they are going to “prove” that it works with a fake jury, then fleece the investors, but it seems a very roundabout way of doing it. [/QUOTE] It’s called a ‘long con.’ ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/113 "2006-09-01T23:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] It’s called a ‘long con.’ [/QUOTE] I’m inclined to think so as well (but damn, if it were true!). However… haven’t these guys received so much publicity that they couldn’t easily disappear with any money they get (assuming it’s a scam)? One of the necessities of the long con is that you can disappear with the money at the end of the con. These guys seem to be leaving a pretty big, obvious paper trail. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/114 "2006-09-02T06:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] The people I would want to inspect it are _magicians_, not people with “multiple PhDs”( :rolleyes: ) [/QUOTE] Didn’t I already suggest The Amazing Randi’s group he’s _already assembled_ at CSICOP? ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/115 "2006-09-02T06:20:40Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] From elsewhere on that page: Oh my… (Before submitting this post, though, I re-read the page and saw that it’s a pardoy of some kind. (“With Ken’s permission we have edited this document to fit the dimensions of reader’s minds and attention span”) That’s a relief.) -FrL- [/QUOTE] Also load the source and read the HTML comments (in \ tags). ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/116 "2006-09-02T08:38:04Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] No way would they be involved in a financial scam. [/QUOTE] I am referring to Citigate Dewe Rogerson [QUOTE=Cervaise] You better send them a bunch of money then. Let us know how it works out for you. [/QUOTE] You don’t seem to understand, I belatedly recognized their PR/CR agency from my distant past - they are highly respected and respectable. There is a very good chance that Dewe Rogerson have set the thing up as a ‘demonstration’ of how they can run a publicity campaign - but there is no way that Dewe Rogerson would be knowingly involved in a scam It is like Cordiant, or WPP or Saatchi’s getting involved in promoting a Nigerian 419 con. It is probably an advertising industry hoax, but it is not a financial scam. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/117 "2006-09-02T11:27:17Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The eight independent engineers and scientists are not known to exist. They are all “off the record.” [/QUOTE] Quite. I think you miss my point. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/118 "2006-09-04T14:07:18Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] Right. I can see Chronos’s reaction now: “Oh, so they’ve been driving this car around for a year now without refueling it? Right. It’s a scam. A clever scam. They won’t let anyone take the thing apart and examine it, so how can we know they’re not lying to us? How do we know the interior isn’t hiding some RTG or clever batteries or something …?” Please tell me exactly how they could build a prototype that would be (a) convincing to the public and (b) would resist all attempts at reverse-engineering [/QUOTE] Here you go. a) convincing (see c!) b) resist all attempts at reverse engineering (don’t have to reveal mechanism) c) earn $1,000,000 😃 Meet James Randi. ‘Just perform step number one, showing that the device or system puts out more energy than it takes in, and the whole world will sit up in rapt admiration, and will invest! Hey, I’ll invest! And of course the JREF will immediately award its million-dollar prize. Steorn will scoff at that, since I’m not a scientist, but I sure know a machine that runs itself will get the prize! And we’ve got the million dollars!’ > **[James Randi's Swift - August 25, 2006](http://archive.randi.org/site/jr/2006-08/082506yet.html)** I would bet you that Steorn turn this million dollars down, but I don’t like to take money under such circumstances. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/119 "2006-09-04T14:18:23Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] … but there is no way that Dewe Rogerson would be knowingly involved in a scam It is like Cordiant, or WPP or Saatchi’s getting involved in promoting a Nigerian 419 con. It is probably an advertising industry hoax, but it is not a financial scam. [/QUOTE] Well Barings was a respectable bank. But they went bankrupt all the same: The ego of a 28-year-old trader on the Singapore Monetary Exchange and the greed and stupidity of a 233 year-old bank had combined to destroy an investment empire, and in the process stunned the world. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/nickleeson.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/nickleeson.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![figure9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@figure9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/figure9)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419/120 "2006-09-04T15:58:56Z")
If this idea worked they would not have to advertise for investors! They would have to beat them off with a stick. Why hasn’t some smart venture capitalist invested in this? Simple a smart venture capitalist knows a scam when he/she sees one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-company-invents-free-energy/369419.md?page=7)