# Irish suffix or prefix that means "mother of" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588 "2003-02-26T06:15:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/1 "2003-02-26T06:15:24Z")
Does there exist a suffix or a prefix in the Irish language that I could affix to a name that would mean “Mother of” or “\_\_\_\_'s mother” the way that Johnson would mean “John’s son”? If not in Irish, does such a thing exist in any other Gaelic language? In fact, if you know of it in any language at all, that would be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/2 "2003-02-26T06:36:11Z")
I don’t know the answer, but I can offer a suggestion for where to find it. You might be able to find titles for the Virgin Mary in religious materials, including possibly something along the lines of “Mother of God”. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/3 "2003-02-26T06:46:30Z")
Hm, I found the Hail Mary written in Irish Gaelic, and it translates “Mother of God” as two words: “Máthair Dé.” I’d still prefer to say it in one word, but if I just said “Máthair Aoife” that would be understood as “Mother _of_ Aoife” and not just “Mother Aoife”? ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/4 "2003-02-26T06:53:02Z")
The prefix ‘ni’ in Gaelic and ‘ferch’ in Welsh indicate ‘daughter of’ if I recall correctly. I can’t seem to find an easily digested reference for you, though. The patronymics and matronymics are common, but I can’t think of any forms for ‘father of’ or ‘mother of’. Names are generally derived from the older generation. But I’m no big expert. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/5 "2003-02-26T07:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > In fact, if you know of it in any language at all, that would be helpful. In Arabic “Umm \_\_\_\_\_” is used to mean “the mother of \_\_\_\_\_”; e.g., a woman has a son named “Khalid” thereafter may be known as “Umm Khalid”. (The corresponding term for “father of” is “Abu”.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Bas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Mr.Bas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Bas)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/6 "2003-02-26T11:16:25Z")
In Icelandic, …dottir means daughter of … . I can’t think of any language that has a suffix or prefix for mother of or father of, though. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/7 "2003-02-26T11:28:55Z")
“Ni” or “Nic” (don’t know when you use the different spelling - think it might have something to do with the surname beginning with a vowel) means “daughter of”, and is the female equivalent of “O’”, which in itself is a compression of “Oag” (IIRC). A female e.g. Grainne Ni Nuadhain, might have a brother e.g. Padraig O’Nuadhain. At least this is as far as I can work out - proper Irish people will no doubt come and correct me. Dunno about “mother of”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/8 "2003-02-26T11:31:48Z")
In Hindi or Urdu you put the phrase _ki ma_ after the name. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/9 "2003-02-26T11:44:29Z")
Oh yeah, about Irish. You wanted to know how to show the possessive sense of “of”, and not just simple apposition. For this you have to put the following name into the genitive case. There are several different masculine and feminine noun declensions in Irish, using different forms for the genitive. IAMNAIL, but if you tell me specifically what name you want to say the mother of, maybe I can help find what declension it is. Sometimes the genitive singular is made by inserting -i- into a word. For example, the genitive of _bád_ ‘boat’ is _báid_ ‘of the boat’. Sometimes the genitive is made by adding -a at the end. For example, the genitive of _gnólacht_ ‘company’ is _gnólachta_ But for some words the genitive is no different from the base form. Since the example you asked about, Aoife, already has an i in it, and ends with a vowel, maybe it’s analogous to _bearna_ ‘gap’, of which the genitive is also _bearna_. I don’t know. My Irish dictionary doesn’t list proper names. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/10 "2003-02-26T12:21:26Z")
**Cessandra** , going by analogy, _Aoine_ ‘Friday’ is of the feminine fourth declension, in which apparently the genitive singular is the same form as the nominative singular. Since it differs by only one letter, I’m guessing that the feminine name _Aoífe_ works the same way. Then ‘Mother of Aoífe’ would be _Máthair Aoífe_ (note: don’t omit the accent marks!), pronounced approximately “maaher eeva”. How do you tell this apart from the apposition “Mother Aoífe”? I don’t know… context? In Persian, to say ‘mother of’, you simply put _mâdar-e_ before the name. ---
**Author:** ![pasty2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@pasty2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasty2003)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/11 "2003-02-26T12:34:31Z")
Swedish might be language worth checking out as i believe many children actually take the mothers, rather than fathers surname. Although granted this is the surname. And of course the scandanavians are perhaps the most common to have suffixed with ‘son’. None of this is probably useful, only looked at the thread as i am Irish. But alas the only gaelic most of us know these days is ‘Pog ma thoin’. ---
**Author:** ![micilin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8c91f0/32.png) [@micilin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micilin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/12 "2003-02-26T13:46:29Z")
Ah, the tuiseal guineadach (‘genitive case’ in Irish). One of the many many reasons the languge has remained mostly incomprehensible to me despite twelve years of it in school. Here’s more than you would ever want to know about the genitive case in Irish: [http://www.contemporarypoetry.com/brain/lang/irisha12.html](http://www.contemporarypoetry.com/brain/lang/irisha12.html) For example: > [@](#): > > The definite article of a masculine noun in the genitive case is still “an”, but it aspirates the noun following (unless it begins with “d” or “t”), and adds “t” to a noun beginning with “s”. Nouns beginning with d, t, l, n, r, or a vowel are unaffected by “an” Got that? It s a bit like: ‘put your coat on the lower peg _after_ lunch _before_ saying your prayers _unless_ you have a younger brother and you won’t be attending rugby practise otherwise your brother should put his coat on the upper peg, and you should write your letter home’. I’ve never heard of a prefix for ‘mother of’ in Irish though, but I’m not the best source, as evidently, I know more about Monty Python, than my mother tongue. ---
**Author:** ![micilin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8c91f0/32.png) [@micilin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micilin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/13 "2003-02-26T13:48:07Z")
And according to the page below its spelt ‘tuiseal ginideach’. See? No idea. [http://homepage.tinet.ie/~eofeasa/level04/ceacht404/miniu/404f.htm](http://homepage.tinet.ie/~eofeasa/level04/ceacht404/miniu/404f.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/14 "2003-02-26T16:57:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pasty2003 \* > \*\*Swedish might be language worth checking out as i believe many children actually take the mothers, rather than fathers surname. Although granted this is the surname. And of course the scandanavians are perhaps the most common to have suffixed with ‘son’. > \*\* Nope. Not particularly common in Sweden. Iceland however uses -dottir per default. If John and Linda have kids (Paul and Yoko), they would be Paul Johnson and Yoko Lindasdottir (I think the Iclandic use one ‘s’ in son, they may well use two as in Sweden or ‘sen’ as in Norway and Denmark. What you may be thinking of is that children born to mothers who are not married to their fathers (fairly common with Swedens cohabitation laws), is that the child takes the mothers surname per default, unless the parents request otherwise. I should note that in recent years it has become a _little_ more common for adult women to change their names to Whateversdotter (Swedish word for daughter) either as a feminist thang, or for other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/15 "2003-02-27T00:09:09Z")
Wow, lots of information. First, a question: > [@](#): > > Máthair Aoífe (note: don’t omit the accent marks!), Are you sure Aoífe has an accent over the i? I didn’t see it written that way in the baby names lists, but if it does I’ll be sure to use it. We are considering naming our next child Aoífe, and I don’t want to screw her name up! Secondly, the reason I was asking this. Like I said, I am considering naming our next child Aoífe, and I was also looking for a new screenname. I sort of like Máthair Aoífe. Nielaine (since my mom’s name is Elaine) looks kind of neat, too, but I think it’d be weird having my mom’s name in my username. Thanks for the info on the other languages, but I’m not sure I like any of those. But I appreciate the info! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/16 "2003-02-27T00:24:32Z")
**Cessandra** , I’m not 100% sure, but I used Google to search on Aoíne-with-the-accent, and got many hits. (Of course, I got hits without the accent too, but that’s to be expected because of all the people who don’t put in the accents when they’re s’posed to.) If it weren’t meant to have an accent, then I shouldn’t have gotten any hits when I searched the accented version. Did your baby name book use accents on the other Irish names? Did it have Caitlín or Caitlin? Máire or Maire? If it didn’t use accents in these names, it isn’t reliable for Irish spelling. I think you need to look it up in a book on Irish mythology that was published in Ireland, so that you will not be in any doubt. Also, find someone who really truly knows Irish grammar to verify that the genitive of Aoífe is Aoífe. I think it probably is, but I’m not 100% on that either. Ask our **ruadh**. ---
**Author:** ![InTransit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@InTransit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InTransit)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/17 "2003-02-27T01:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > \*\*Nope. Not particularly common in Sweden. Iceland however uses -dottir per default. If John and Linda have kids (Paul and Yoko), they would be Paul Johnson and Yoko Lindasdottir (I think the Iclandic use one ‘s’ in son, they may well use two as in Sweden or ‘sen’ as in Norway and Denmark. \*\* I’m not Icelandic, but I always thought that you took your father’s name as your last name, so Paul would be Paul Johnson and Yoko would be Yoko Johndottir. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/18 "2003-02-27T02:26:59Z")
**Jomo** , I don’t remember if there were accents on the other names. I went to so many many sites, and then someone recommended this name to me, but she spelled it wrong because I couldn’t find it anywhere. So I Googled “Irish Eve Baby Names” and saw “Aiofe” over and over in the results, so I just hit the first page to be sure. I’ll go look at some other sites and see. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/19 "2003-02-27T02:39:10Z")
Hrm… I figured it out. Perhaps Aiobh is not as popular or something, but when this friend told it to me, I could not find it. All I could find was Aoife. But now I see that they are BOTH names, and Aiobh is “Eve” while Aoife is “Eva.” [This site](http://www.hylit.com/info/Names/IrishGIRLSnames.html) does not put accents on either name. So, now, do you have any clues about Máthair _Aiobh_, which is the name I actually want? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588/20 "2003-02-27T04:34:57Z")
[Aoife is a name from old Gaelic mythology.](http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/iri-myth.html) Sounds very much like a Gaelic version of Eve; so does Aoibh, but _aoibh_ is a native Gaelic word meaning ‘smile’ or ‘pleasant’. In fact, _aoife_ and _aoibh_ are variant forms of the same word. It seems that the site you linked to has confused this native Irish word with the Biblical name for Eve, which comes from Hebrew _.Havvah_ ‘living’ (no connection with “Hava Nagila,” which uses a different Hebrew letter h). Googling around, I see a lot—a _lot_—of people have made the same confusion. I looked up the Irish version of Eve in the Bible, and it’s spelled _Éabha_ (pronounced “ay-va”; note the accented É). My Irish dictionary says it’s the feminine 4th declension, which means the genitive is the same as the nominative. My dictionary also included the genitive phrase _síol Éabha_, literally ‘the progeny of Eve’, meaning the human race. This shows that the genitive of Éabha is indeed Éabha. There you go, _Máthair Éabha_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-suffix-or-prefix-that-means-mother-of/157588.md?page=2)