# Irish/Swiss neutrality in WW2: any resentment in the rest of Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 19, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246 "2012-03-19T18:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/41 "2012-03-21T13:27:27Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Do tell! (Yes, I’m too lazy/busy to look them up myself.) [Here’s some of the exchange.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#The_Emergency_after_the_end_of_World_War_II) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/42 "2012-03-21T13:51:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Irish government was not secretly pro-Britain. Insofar as Irish neutrality was contravened it was always in a pro-Britain way, never a pro-Nazi way. That’s all I meant by it being secretly pro-Britain and my comment was directed at benbo1’s ill-informed comments to the contrary. There’s more Ireland could and should have done in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![spikebrennan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@spikebrennan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spikebrennan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/43 "2012-03-21T14:12:39Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Also worth noting: Ireland was and is a very small country. World War 2 was decades before the rise of the Celtic Tiger, and the Irish simply didn’t have the money or the population to put together much of an Army or navy. > > So, it’s safe to say that, in early 1941, when Hitler controlled the Continent of Europe and Britain was facing the Wehrmacht alone, NOBODY in London was thinking, “Damn it, if onlly the IRISH would declare war on Germany, we’d have a chance!” > > As a practical matter, there was nothing Ireland could do. Ireland offered to join the waron the Allied side, in exchange for Northern Ireland. (cite: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish\_neutrality\_during\_World\_War\_II#Offer\_to\_end\_the\_Partition\_of\_Ireland\_in\_1940](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II#Offer_to_end_the_Partition_of_Ireland_in_1940). The British weren’t interested. For what it’s worth, the Germans bombed Dublin (by accident). ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/44 "2012-03-21T14:15:22Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > Ireland offered to join the waron the Allied side, in exchange for Northern Ireland. (cite: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish\_neutrality\_during\_World\_War\_II#Offer\_to\_end\_the\_Partition\_of\_Ireland\_in\_1940](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II#Offer_to_end_the_Partition_of_Ireland_in_1940). The British weren’t interested. > > For what it’s worth, the Germans bombed Dublin (by accident). Your cite doesn’t back up your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/45 "2012-03-21T14:16:13Z")
As it happens, the Nazis developed a detailed plan for invading the Republic of Ireland: [Operation Green (Ireland) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Green_(Ireland)). The British, upon learning of this, developed their own plan for a counterinvasion, with the wary cooperation of the Irish government: [Plan W - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W) > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The main thing the allies wanted from Ireland was basing rights. The ability to base naval and air patrols out of western Ireland would have been a major benefit in the Battle of the Atlantic. Nicholas Monsarrat, author of the excellent WWII convoy-duty novel _The Cruel Sea_, wrote about the bitter resentment of many British sailors at the time that Ireland was protected and fed by the grace of the Royal Navy, but would not help out with basing rights, let alone actually joining the fight against the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/46 "2012-03-21T14:24:04Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Insofar as Irish neutrality was contravened it was always in a pro-Britain way, never a pro-Nazi way. That’s all I meant by it being secretly pro-Britain and my comment was directed at benbo1’s ill-informed comments to the contrary. There’s more Ireland could and should have done in WWII. Well for the simple reason that pro-Nazi contravention would have had very serious and swift repercussions. While the same was true for the Swedes and the Swiss with respect to pro-Allied actions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/47 "2012-03-21T14:33:48Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Also worth noting: Ireland was and is a very small country. World War 2 was decades before the rise of the Celtic Tiger, and the Irish simply didn’t have the money or the population to put together much of an Army or navy. > > So, it’s safe to say that, in early 1941, when Hitler controlled the Continent of Europe and Britain was facing the Wehrmacht alone, NOBODY in London was thinking, “Damn it, if onlly the IRISH would declare war on Germany, we’d have a chance!” > > As a practical matter, there was nothing Ireland could do. Two words: Potato launchers! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![spikebrennan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@spikebrennan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spikebrennan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/48 "2012-03-21T15:02:30Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Your cite doesn’t back up your statement. You’re right; I had it backwards. The British government offered Northern Ireland in exchange for Ireland entering the war; de Valera turned it down. Here’s the cite for the other thing I said: > **[Bombing of Dublin in World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dublin_in_World_War_II)** > > During World War II, Dublin was first bombed early on the morning of 2 January 1941, when German bombs were dropped on the Terenure area. This was followed early on the following morning of 3 January 1941, by further German bombing of houses on Donore Terrace in the South Circular Road area. A number of people were injured, but no one was killed in these bombings. Later that year, on 31 May 1941, four German bombs fell in north Dublin, one damaging Áras an Uachtaráin but with the greates At... ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/49 "2012-03-21T15:32:27Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > [Here’s some of the exchange.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(Ireland)#The_Emergency_after_the_end_of_World_War_II) Go raibh maith agat. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/50 "2012-03-21T15:39:49Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > You’re right; I had it backwards. The British government offered Northern Ireland in exchange for Ireland entering the war; de Valera turned it down. A terrible oversimplification, really. The cite says that the unification of Ireland could be discussed but the Northern Irish government would likely be against it, so it probably wouldn’t happen. Still, the offer was a generous one since, as Astorian says, Ireland didn’t have a pot to piss in militarily speaking. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/51 "2012-03-21T15:48:39Z")
If I had been Irish PM at the time (no idea how to spell Tea Shock or whatever the position is called), I would have declared war around about Jun 1944. No problem for raising an army either just simply dust up the colours of regiments in St Patricks Cathedral and ask the British if the next group of volunteers could not join them instead of British regiments and call it the Irish Expeditionary Force. I am sure a Southern Irish origin Brigadier or Major General could have been spared by the British to command them. The same number of Irish die, Ireland can say it did its bit and best of all, get access to the Marshall plan post war. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/52 "2012-03-21T16:08:20Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > A terrible oversimplification, really. The cite says that the unification of Ireland could be discussed but the Northern Irish government would likely be against it, so it probably wouldn’t happen. Still, the offer was a generous one since, as Astorian says, Ireland didn’t have a pot to piss in militarily speaking. I’d read that Montgomery advised against an Irish invasion because of the amount of manpower it would have taken to secure the ports and the country. The IRA would have got lots of volunteers to take to the hills agian and start up the guerrilla tactics of hit hard and run away fast. You can be damn sure they would have been asking for and almost certainly getting aid from the Germans in thier cause. I can’t for the life of me remember where I read this though so I can’t provide a cite so not very good GQ material I’m afraid. Although apart from the Monty part the rest would have almost certainly happened if the British had of grabbed the ports and main cities of Cork and Dublin. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/53 "2012-03-21T16:14:03Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > I’d read that Montgomery advised against an Irish invasion because of the amount of manpower it would have taken to secure the ports and the country. The IRA would have got lots of volunteers to take to the hills agian and start up the guerrilla tactics of hit hard and run away fast. You can be damn sure they would have been asking for and almost certainly getting aid from the Germans in thier cause. > > I can’t for the life of me remember where I read this though so I can’t provide a cite so not very good GQ material I’m afraid. Although apart from the Monty part the rest would have almost certainly happened if the British had of grabbed the ports and main cities of Cork and Dublin. I really doubt it was Monty, because by the time he was in any position to advise on strategy, invading Ireland was a moot point. Also, I really doubt the IRA would have had any impact, it would not be the 1919-1922 or even the recent Iraq War, the aim was not to police and pacify as in the earlier examples, but to occupy a country for a certain benefit, most overflight and basing. The Allies would have occupied Dublin, Cork and some Western ports and other areas where they were based and generally ignored the rest of the country. Historically this is what happened in Iraq, Iran, Syria as well as other countries which were occupied out of necessity. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/54 "2012-03-21T16:23:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I really doubt it was Monty, because by the time he was in any position to advise on strategy, invading Ireland was a moot point. > > Also, I really doubt the IRA would have had any impact, it would not be the 1919-1922 or even the recent Iraq War, the aim was not to police and pacify as in the earlier examples, but to occupy a country for a certain benefit, most overflight and basing. The Allies would have occupied Dublin, Cork and some Western ports and other areas where they were based and generally ignored the rest of the country. Historically this is what happened in Iraq, Iran, Syria as well as other countries which were occupied out of necessity. It was Monty that was mentioned (that was were I also found out that he was stationed in Ireland during the War of Independence) but again I don’t have a cite so in GQ terms I’ve got nothing 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/55 "2012-03-21T16:39:10Z")
From a quick search I can’t find anything other than Monty saying that he was asked to prepare plans for invasion. > [@](#): > > Field Marshal Montgomery, who was later hailed as a hero for defeating Rommel’s forces in north Africa, noted in his memoirs: “I was told to prepare plans for the seizure of Cork and Queenstown in southern Ireland so the harbours could be used as naval bases.” However right after that the historian says > [@](#): > > “British forces could have taken control with very little difficulty, but it would have an absolute gift to the IRA who would have launched waves after wave of guerrilla attacks,” he said. “Occupying Eire would have been an extremely messy and costly undertaking.” These two quotes from that article seem to be used a bit on other site and may have led to me thinking they were from the same mouth. It wasn’t a web site though it was a book I read it in but I may well have been mistaken. [http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/in-the-media/churchill-in-the-news/855-churchill-had-plan-to-invade-nazi-ireland](http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/in-the-media/churchill-in-the-news/855-churchill-had-plan-to-invade-nazi-ireland) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/56 "2012-03-21T18:46:04Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The same number of Irish die, Ireland can say it did its bit and best of all, get access to the Marshall plan post war. [Ireland did have access to the Marshall Plan](http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=355). And it’s taoiseach. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/57 "2012-03-21T18:47:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well for the simple reason that pro-Nazi contravention would have had very serious and swift repercussions. While the same was true for the Swedes and the Swiss with respect to pro-Allied actions. It matters not the reason, again the comment was in response to benbo1’s comments about a pro-Nazi bias in the Irish government. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/58 "2012-03-22T01:07:30Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The common wisdom is that mountainous Switzerland would be difficult to take, Like a lot of common wisdom there’s some truth to this, but only some. First and foremost Germany had little to gain from invading Switzerland. They did draw up plans for an invasion, Operation Tannenbaum. There’s an interesting website [here](http://www.schweiz1940.ch/tannen40-en/) showing the evolution of German planning on the issue from 16 June 140 to 4 Oct 1940 as well as the evolution of [Swiss](http://www.schweiz1940.ch/limmat40-en/index.htm) defense plans. Notable is the revision on [July 17, 1940](http://www.schweiz1940.ch/tannen40-en/swiss/orders/operationsbefehl_nr12.htm) which established a covering action on the border while mobilization took place and fall back immediately to the Central Redoubt in the Alps, abandoning most of the country and 80% of the population to the Axis. The Swiss army wasn’t in any position to defeat an invasion or do more than make themselves as much of a pain in the ass for as long as possible. The biggest reason against a German invasion of Switzerland was the mountains, but in an oblique sort of way. In the event of an invasion the Swiss were certain to blow the railroad tunnels at [Simplon Pass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplon_Pass) and [St. Gotthard Pass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Gotthard_Pass) through which most rail traffic from Germany to Italy passed. Their loss would have been a substantial blow, particularly for Italy’s already shaky economy, and there was no way to repair them in any reasonable amount of time. The [Gotthard rail tunnel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Rail_Tunnel) for example is 15km long and took over 10 years to dig. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/59 "2012-03-22T01:35:41Z")
> [@spikebrennan](#): > > You’re right; I had it backwards. The British government offered Northern Ireland in exchange for Ireland entering the war; de Valera turned it down. De Valera, from memory, turned it down because he didn’t think it was a serious offer. When the offer was made he asked what Sir James Craig’s position on it was, and was given to understand that Craig - Unionist leader and Prime Minister of Northern Ireland - didn’t know about it. De Valera concluded - correctly, I think - that the offer couldn’t be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246/60 "2012-03-22T02:03:42Z")
An interesting earlier thread about Hitler’s plan to invade Switzerland: [Why didn't Hitler take Switzerland ? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531195) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-swiss-neutrality-in-ww2-any-resentment-in-the-rest-of-europe/616246.md?page=4)