# Irish Traveler= ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254 "2002-09-23T12:11:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/21 "2002-09-24T06:19:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Scene \* > > \*\*I think the “Travellers” in the U.S. are, in fact, descended from Irish Travellers that immigrated to the U.S. decades ago. > \*\* There are also Scottish Travelers, among whom “Williamson” is the most common surname. Besides home “improvement” scams, they are involved in the manufacture of motor homes (especially in Elkhart, Indiana, the “Recreational Vehicle Capital of the World”). I remember seeing a TV report in which it was revealed that the floorboards of one such camper were made from used pizza boxes. Naturally, no self-respecting Traveler would actually drive such a shoddy vehicle himself… _Cincinnati Post_ column about a detective who investigates Gypsy/Traveler scams and occasionally helps victims receive restitution: [http://www.cincypost.com/2002/jun/29/wecker062902.html](http://www.cincypost.com/2002/jun/29/wecker062902.html) Warning from Sonoma County (California) Sheriff’s Department: [http://www.sonoma-county.org/da/travelers\_scam.htm](http://www.sonoma-county.org/da/travelers_scam.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/22 "2002-09-24T07:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhiloVance \* > \*\*In the interest of fighting ignorance, I’ll provide these links. > > I’m Irish too, but it appears this is an indigent minority, much misunderstood, similar to those called Gypsy’s. > They have a reputation, but it’s probably undeserved as most. The old rumor mill is alive and well. Unfortunately, NBC Nightly News in the USA did an indepth story tonight on Irish Travellers and the report covered the 100-year-plus history of the Travellers here, and it wasn’t a pretty picture. NBC tied in the con-artist home improvement folks, shoplifters, thieves, eyc., as being ingrained within the Travellers. They had smuggled Travellers home videos, and interviews supporting the story. Fighting ingnorance, whatever it may be on this issue, is compounded because the MSNBC web sites continues to deteriorate in quality and they no longer post their Nightly News stories they broadcast. ---
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/23 "2002-09-24T07:59:15Z")
To add some further information, the Irish Times did a piece on this case this morning, and gave some background on the “American” Irish Travellers. Basically, there’s about 10,000 of them, and they’re descended from “Irish” Irish Travellers who left Ireland about 150 years ago during the Potato Famine. Yes, there are basically 4 or 5 clans of them, and they mostly do jobbing construction work, apparently often fraudently. They are still nomadic. They still preserve their own language, Shelta, related to Irish Gaelic. They seem to have adopted a similar lifestyle to the “Irish” Travellers who never left Ireland, except they’re significantly better at it, and considerably further up the economic tree. (The Irish Times is the main “paper of record” in Ireland, and can be considered accurate. It has a web site, but there’s no point posting a link, it’s pay for view). ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Scene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bob\_Scene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Scene)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/24 "2002-09-24T08:18:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > **Decades? More like over a hundred years ago for most of them.** Okay, so it was 14 or 15 decades ago. That’s decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/25 "2002-09-24T10:04:14Z")
guys, when Kal wrote a thread about prejudiced sheriffs in the pit, lots of you wrote to decry that prejudice…now you’re saying worse things here. that woman’s ethnicity wasn’t an issue until you found out she was a traveller. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/26 "2002-09-24T10:46:01Z")
i’m sorry about the tone of my last post. i don’t mean to offend anybody here, it’s just that the post SPECIFICALLY highlights the ethnicity of a child-abuser, and then some very unpleasant things are said about that ETHNICITY by other posters. and i don’t feel at all comfortable with that. i’m sure it’s not malicious or anything, it’s just that i’m not happy with the inferences about 1000s of people that no-one here knows personally. and when i said that “you” wrote in Kal’s thread, i meant dopers in general rather than posters in this thread particularly. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2002, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/27 "2002-09-24T16:23:17Z")
To complicate matters further, it’s my understanding there are both Scottish and English Travellers in addition to Irish (though the Irish are the largest group) in the U.S. In addition to the locales mentioned (Murphy Village is indeed the biggest, and was pictured on I believe Dateline as a sprawling development of (comparatively) new and expensive homes, along with top-of-the line pickup trucks used by the men in their construction scams), I have also seen mention of English Travellers in Georgia. Also, while Williams or Williamson may be used by Scottish Travellers, those aliases are also historically common among “regular” gypsies (Roma, if you prefer) – though apparently they have wised up to the fact that fewer and fewer people are likely to trust a guy named Williamson offering to paint their roof or tar their driveway, and have adopted new aliases. I don’t know how long the Irish folk have been using the Traveller appellation – they used to be called tinkers (their ostensible profession was itinerant tinsmiths), but that was deemed derogatory so the polite euphemism in Ireland now is the “Travelling Community” (as opposed to the “settled community”). Again to complicate matters further, while the previous posts about the lack of Indian/“Roma” ancestry among the Celtic Travellers seem generally accepted, the British Isles have also historically had some numbers of regular gypsies as well. How they’ve interacted with the Travellers, if at all, I don’t know. The post about Travellers as Greens may be a bit of a stretch. I suppose the tinker origins are consistent with reusing and repairing old goods, and anyone living in poverty (i.e., most of Ireland, travelling or settled, for most of its history) needs to be kind of thrifty, but organized environmentalism (not to start a separate debate here) tends to be more a cause of the bourgeois – I mention this only because one of the specific causes of tension within Ireland is the (alleged, if you will) tendency of the Travellers to park their trailers on public property, roadsides, beaches, etc., live there for awhile, and depart without doing much to clean up the trash, latrines, and other signs of their passing – I’m not opining on who’s right on this issue, just that it’s been controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/28 "2002-09-25T05:26:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by irishgirl \* > i’m sure it’s not malicious or anything, it’s just that i’m not happy with the inferences about 1000s of people that no-one here knows personally. You are correct. Just keep in mind: 1. She was videotaped (allegedly) committing child abuse. Quite a few people have a problem with that. 2. In the nation-wide search for her, it came to light there were arrest warrants for her from another state, … something about shoplifting I believe. 3. Her reasons for being at the mall that day with her child are still ambiguous at best (other than shopping). At worst are (unsubstantiated?) reports she was shoplifting, attempting to return something for cash (did she own the item in the first place or attempting to get a cash refund for something she shoplifted?) 4. Upon turning herself into the police she had dyed her hair, denied she had done anything wrong, and was blaming the government for any pain her child was suffering (because the child was now separated from her mother). 5. In an interview after her court appearance she admitted to being a Traveller. 6. The media did a quick history check on Irish Travellers and found her behavior closely parallels (matches?) the comments raised in this thread. Without “knowing” her personally, wouldn’t you think the Dopers here are making fair and accurate assessments? ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/29 "2002-09-25T05:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Without “knowing” her personally, wouldn’t you think the Dopers here are making fair and accurate assessments? No. Got to agree with IrishGirl. Unless somebody here has some stats that show that (American) Irish Travellers are significantly more likely to beat their children, the information about the woman’s ethnicity is entirely irrelevant. There are criminals and child abusers in all communities. I can’t remember anyone discussing the ethnicity of the woman who drowned all her children in the bath last year. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/30 "2002-09-25T09:51:42Z")
while it is fair to ask questions about who exactly aer “Irish Travellers”, a term that might be very new to alot of you, the sudden smear job that is being done on them by the media is very disturbing. Alot of honest Irish travellers are going to be branded at thieves, con-artists and child beaters. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/31 "2002-09-25T15:31:12Z")
Hmmm. The rumors I heard about this Traveler is that she beat her child not so much out of frustration that she couldn’t return the goods for cash, but as punishment for the child who didn’t STEAL enough. The child was allegedly in the toy section, unwrapping toys and taking things out of the boxes. I’ve heard of the “train 'em young” policy of the Travelers. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/32 "2002-09-25T16:19:21Z")
I’ll repeat; We are supposed to be fighting ignorance here, not lending ourselves to the propogation of it. Learn for yourselves what an Irish Traveler is, and learn that not **all** of them are deserving of the reputation, matter of fact, most of them are probably pretty honest people like most of us. I cannot understand this _ganging up_ when you know very little about anyone involved except from media whose only purpose is to focus on the bad aspects in order to garner more watchers/readers. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/33 "2002-09-25T16:53:14Z")
**VOW** , I’m really not impressed with your post. Go and learn a bit, then come back. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/34 "2002-09-25T17:20:21Z")
What **PhiloVance** said. With the addition that other ethnic groups who have similar stereotypes are also being affected by the ignorance being spread by the media. Reading the pit, I see that a Tampa girl was starved by her mother and boyfriend: I trust that the media will now be having detailed reports of the criminal life all the people of Tampa lead. Maybe they’ll wheel out a few Tampa and Florida crime _experts_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/35 "2002-09-25T19:51:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > \*\*What **PhiloVance** said. With the addition that other ethnic groups who have similar stereotypes are also being affected by the ignorance being spread by the media. > > Reading the pit, I see that a Tampa girl was starved by her mother and boyfriend: I trust that the media will now be having detailed reports of the criminal life all the people of Tampa lead. > > Maybe they’ll wheel out a few Tampa and Florida crime _experts_. :rolleyes: \*\* Actually, I know quite a few people who seem to believe everyone in Florida is a criminal. Not that that makes it ok of course. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/36 "2002-09-26T07:54:25Z")
It strikes me that the allegations of obscurantism, or “not investigating the true facts about the Travellers,” could equally well apply to the mainstream media and to the uncritical Traveller supporters as to the (fairly moderate) posts on this thread. The undeniable fact that some Irish Travellers (here and in Ireland) do not pursue lives of crime should not, ipso facto, preclude mention of the fact that a disproportionate (though admittedly less-than-entire) subset of them (as well as of conventional gypsies) do pursue such careers, to judge from all the statistical and anecdotal evidence. For instance, the websites I’ve seen indicate that a total of a mere 7,000 Irish Travellers, approximately, live in the U.S. Murphy Village alone, to judge from the Dateline special, has hundreds and hundreds of high-end houses and pickup trucks, despite the fact that not a single one of the families interviewed appears to have regular employment (outside of construction scams). Is it then so unreasonable to postulate (really, just to point out) the link between this small and insular group and a large number of crimes? Isn’t Criminology 101 about determining who commits crimes, and when, and how? The media in Ireland has been gripped in recent years by a paroxysm of political sensitivity that has led to endless articles about the root causes of Traveller poverty, etc., but has still not managed to obscure the facts, evident to the Irish populace, that the Traveller population has not assimilated, and would appear not to wish to assimilate, to the mainstream population. When this non-assimilation is viewed in terms of the free and easy, noncomformist nomadic lifestyle of the Travellers, it’s readily portrayed (by the media among others) as downright romantic, and as bespeaking a grandiose and free-roaming spirit on the Travellers’ part. It does not seem grossly unfair to suggest that mentioning the other, equally empirically demonstrable, ramifications of Traveller non-assimilation is merely apropriate in this context. To get down to brass tacks, every initial indication is that Mrs. Toogood was a member of an at least loosely organized clan of Traveller con artists, specializing (as is not uncommon for them) in shoplifting or bogus refund scams against stores. Her possession of multiple differing state identifications at the time she was arrested hardly supports any contention that American Travellers’ stigma as disproportionately prone to fraudulent behavior is a slander as opposed to an elementary heuristicly-based inference. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/37 "2002-09-26T09:27:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The undeniable fact that some Irish Travellers (here and in Ireland) do not pursue lives of crime should not, ipso facto, preclude mention of the fact that a disproportionate (though admittedly less-than-entire) subset of them (as well as of conventional gypsies) do pursue such careers, to judge from all the statistical and anecdotal evidence. You are able to show the statistical evidence that proves that ‘Gypsies’ and Travellers are disproportionately criminal, compared to other people of a similar socio-economic background? If not, then you are relying on anecdotal evidence. In another thread I posted the following link and quote: [Link](http://www.camcnty.gov.uk/sub/resrchgp/travel/susp.htm) > [@](#): > > There is little statistical evidence with which to substantiate or refute the criminal stereotype which attaches to Travellers, and apparently little research into the subject.96 A ‘best guess’ is that they are likely to commit similar levels of crime to others in similar circumstances. One estimate of uncertain reliability, suggests that in Romania, where Roma Gypsies form about 11% of the population, they are found to commit 11% of recorded crime.97 A 1970 survey in Yorkshire also found comparable levels of crime committed by Gypsies and non-Gypsies. The most revealing aspect of this research was the nature of allegations against Gypsies, which included ‘mocking golfers’ and ‘plotting to assassinate the Queen’.98 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/38 "2002-09-26T10:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Huerta88 \* > It strikes me that the allegations of obscurantism, or “not investigating the true facts about the Travellers,” could equally well apply to the mainstream media and to the uncritical Traveller supporters as to the (fairly moderate) posts on this thread. > > The undeniable fact that some Irish Travellers (here and in Ireland) do not pursue lives of crime should not, ipso facto, preclude mention of the fact that a disproportionate (though admittedly less-than-entire) subset of them (as well as of conventional gypsies) do pursue such careers, to judge from all the statistical and anecdotal evidence. > \*\* > > While statistics may very well point out a larger number of criminal behaviour amongst traveller clans, the media hunt will lead to further untruths and ignorance being spread. See several posts in this very thread. > > Why do you see A group of people who do well but don’t conform to “normal” standards of existence and insist it was all done illegally? > > I’m not going to say that they are all saints, but I think people should be given the innocent until proven guilty status the law permits and not guilt by association of Etnicity. The media in Ireland has been gripped in recent years by a paroxysm of political sensitivity that has led to endless articles about the root causes of Traveller poverty, etc., but has still not managed to obscure the facts, evident to the Irish populace, that the Traveller population has not assimilated, and would appear not to wish to assimilate, to the mainstream population. When this non-assimilation is viewed in terms of the free and easy, noncomformist nomadic lifestyle of the Travellers, it’s readily portrayed (by the media among others) as downright romantic, and as bespeaking a grandiose and free-roaming spirit on the Travellers’ part. It does not seem grossly unfair to suggest that mentioning the other, equally empirically demonstrable, ramifications of Traveller non-assimilation is merely apropriate in this context. [/QUOTE] What Irish media do you read? certainly not the one I do, which has nothing but traveller bashing week in and week out. Pick up any sunday tabloid rag and I will put dollars to cents that there is at least one anti-traveller article in it, and certainly no traveller rights reporting. Why should they assimilate? Any attempts they try (sending children to integrated schools, for example) is almost always met with intolerance the likes of which I am asamed to be Irish. one example > **[School for scandal](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jan/15/race.education)** > > When five new children arrived at St Joseph's it felt like a miracle - the school was facing closure because of dwindling numbers. But there was a catch: the newcomers were Travellers, and soon the local children were gone. Dea Birkett on fear and... go and have a read of [http://www.paveepoint.ie](http://www.paveepoint.ie) to see what the average Irish traveller is trying to do. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/39 "2002-09-26T10:35:03Z")
damn coding errors… apols ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254/40 "2002-09-26T10:46:45Z")
**Huerta88** , welcome to the boards. You use your words purtier than a twenny dollar whore, but there are some jolly big holes in your ‘evidence’. > [@](#): > > The media in Ireland has been gripped in recent years by a paroxysm of political sensitivity I’m afraid I’ve never seen evidence of this in Ireland. Ever read the Evening Herald? If you mean ‘political sensitivity’ to be ‘not writing prejudicially’ then I’m afraid the media doesn’t get halfway there, though stops short at breaking the law - in the absence of a UK-style Race Relations Act, the Incitement to Hatred Act would cover this. Now to your evidence: > [@](#): > > to judge from the Dateline special > [@](#): > > not a single one _of the families interviewed_ appears to have regular employment > [@](#): > > Is it then so unreasonable to postulate (really, just to point out) the link between this small and insular group and a large number of crimes (Emphasis mine) There’s a large difference between ‘postulate’ and ‘point out’. And it could indeed be ‘unreasonable’. > [@](#): > > It does not seem grossly unfair to suggest that mentioning the other, equally empirically demonstrable, ramifications of Traveller non-assimilation is merely apropriate in this context I don’t see how you can infer one from the other. I am looking for your empirical demonstration. > [@](#): > > Her possession of multiple differing state identifications at the time she was arrested hardly supports any contention that American Travellers’ stigma as disproportionately prone to fraudulent behavior is a slander as opposed to an elementary heuristicly-based inference. Her possession of multiple differing state identifications could indicate that, because she’s a Traveller, then she’s a con-merchant. However, it could also indicate that she’s just a crook. > [@](#): > > to judge from all the statistical and anecdotal evidence Where are your stats? The only stats here are those from **Kal** , and they go against what you’re inferring. And I’m afraid that anecdotal evidence just isn’t enough. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence I’ve heard to indicate that asylum seekers are getting huge social security cheques from the Irish Government to purchase cars. These are rumours, and are false. A little bit of research indicates that this story is a [very common urban myth](http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrat.htm). It hardly supports any contention that, since one Traveller behaves thus, they all do. I’m not saying you might not have a point, but basing your argument on a Dateline Special, anecdotal ‘evidence’, and non-existent statistics isn’t the way to make it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irish-traveler/129254.md?page=3)