# Iron Man surprised me today **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789 "2011-04-09T17:58:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/21 "2011-04-10T17:03:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Has Captain America killed anyone yet? Someone in the “civilian deaths” thread mentioned a case where the only way he was able to stop the bad guy was by killing him, and that he promptly turned himself in to the authorities. I don’t know the issue number, though. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/22 "2011-04-10T21:57:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And after that, he takes the leader of the terrorists and throws him to the mob of villagers he’d just been terrorizing, with the pretty clear implication that they’re going to tear him apart with their bare hands. Comic-book Stark did that in the late 80s or early 90s once. Rhodey was flying him home from some doctor’s appointment which had gone badly, so he was depressed, when they got news of an airliner hijacking. At first Stark didn’t want to deal with it, but then Rhodes called him on his bullshit, so he suited up, flew over, took the hijacker’s gun via magnetism, and tossed him to the passengers, leaving as someone yelled “Let’s pulp the sucker!” I don’t really think STark ever really believe in the “absolutely no-killing” rule. If that gotten into the Avengers’ charter it wasn’t his idea, though I can’t imagine whose it was. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/23 "2011-04-10T23:17:36Z")
The no-killing code has two parts. One is the old-fashioned leftovers from the days when comics really were for kids and the Comics Code nailed that down. The other is the reality that a comic comes out every single month, and many heroes appear several times a month. You can’t think up 50 new villains a year so they have to live to reappear over and over and over. Even for comics it would look bad to kill off henchmen but let the maniacal torturer/field/mass murderer off scot free. There’s no good way to handle it. A code that says that the good guy doesn’t kill may be bad, but it’s probably the least worst bad option. If it isn’t I haven’t come across the one that’s leaster. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/24 "2011-04-10T23:26:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Someone in the “civilian deaths” thread mentioned a case where the only way he was able to stop the bad guy was by killing him, and that he promptly turned himself in to the authorities. I don’t know the issue number, though. CAPTAIN AMERICA #321 – but that’s more show then tell; it gets helpfully recapped (and shown in flashback) in #322, where he can reflect: _“I located their base here and went undercover as one of them. I succeeded in locating the hostages and subduing most of their captors when an ULTIMATUM agent began firing into the crowd. Every second I delayed might cost another life. I had no time to reach him, no weapon to throw at him. So I shot him with the gun that went with my disguise.”_ [helpful link](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/Copy%2520of%2520CaptainAmerica322p04_edited_001.jpg&imgrefurl=http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/09/10/i-liked-most-of-mark-gruenwalds-early-cap/&usg=__fJdUPA2WGJ7ZNJSCG4UTem7Fwuo=&h=334&w=480&sz=117&hl=en&start=0&zoom=0&tbnid=a50qoCJOrkrMOM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=129&ei=PjmiTd61BpHqgQfEkITbBQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522captain%2Bamerica%2B322%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D716%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1069&vpy=136&dur=70&hovh=90&hovw=129&tx=152&ty=29&oei=PjmiTd61BpHqgQfEkITbBQ&page=1&ndsp=50&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0) On checking Marvel’s site – _“While battling the terrorists, Cap was forced to shoot an ULTIMATUM agent in order to rescue hostages; despite his victory, he was sickened at having been forced to kill an opponent for the first time since World War II”_ – I was reminded that they did it again in recent years: _“While fighting terrorists in the US, Cap was again forced to take a life to save others, killing terrorist leader al-Tariq. Hoping to discourage counterattacks on the USA, Cap unmasked before the world to give an individual face to al-Tariq’s death.”_ [bonus link](http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_%28Steve_Rogers%29) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/25 "2011-04-10T23:28:41Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The no-killing code has two parts. One is the old-fashioned leftovers from the days when comics really were for kids and the Comics Code nailed that down. > > The other is the reality that a comic comes out every single month, and many heroes appear several times a month. You can’t think up 50 new villains a year so they have to live to reappear over and over and over. Even for comics it would look bad to kill off henchmen but let the maniacal torturer/field/mass murderer off scot free. > > There’s no good way to handle it. A code that says that the good guy doesn’t kill may be bad, but it’s probably the least worst bad option. If it isn’t I haven’t come across the one that’s leaster. There certain characters for whom no-killing works. Superman, for instance, I can buy. He’s so much more powerful than most foes that generally it’s hard to buy that he’d have a legal defense if he killed, say, Toyman or Terra-Man or so forth; once’s he’s disarmed them the threat is over. Additionally, he’s so powerful that as a practical thing, he needs to assure the public that he’s not going to set himself up as God-King. Lastly, his personal history (I prefer the Kal who knows about Krypton and has some bad survivor’s guilt going on) would make him reluctant to kill. Batman has been addressed by others, if not this thread then others, so I’ll skip him. Spider-Man is another I can buy having a basically neurotic aversion to killin; his compulsion to save everybody, even when he knows he’s beeing foolish, is part of his established. I’ll even grant that Thor, who often styles himself as the protector of mortals against gods & other supernatural menaces, would see killing humans as inconsistent with his mission. But Captain America? Wonder Woman? Iron Man? They’re going to have an attitude that could be summarized as “I won’t set out to kill anybody, but if I have to do it to save myself or the general public I will. And God/Hera/Edison help the bad guy who’s threatening a member of my family or one of my sidekicks/lesbian ex-girlfriends/employees.” And the idea that the Hulk has never killed anybody is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/26 "2011-04-10T23:41:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In the second X-Men film, Wolverine stabs a bunch of dudes - but I recall an interview with the director, where he insisted that he’d just wounded them, not actually killed anyone. Oddly enough, that was taken directly from the comics. If they had done the third movie properly, Stryker’s soldiers would have returned as cyborgs. (They were setting up the Stryker Crusade to substitute for the Hellfire Club, when Jean Grey turned into Dark Phoenix.) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/27 "2011-04-11T04:40:15Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > It’s all okay until he loses his mind. Then he’d start killing the people he once saved. > > (Or he loses his sight, which would probably end up with the same result - if he can’t see, he might well kill indiscriminately.) Feh. If not for him, then they’d be dead. They took for granted all the times he never let them down—if he went crazy, would _they_ be there holding his hand? 😃 > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But Captain America? Wonder Woman? Iron Man? They’re going to have an attitude that could be summarized as “I won’t set out to kill anybody, but if I have to do it to save myself or the general public I will. And God/Hera/Edison help the bad guy who’s threatening a member of my family or one of my sidekicks/lesbian ex-girlfriends/employees.” Oddly enough, I think this is close to the Tim Burton version of Batman. I always got the impression that he didn’t\* _set out_ to specifically kill people—he went out to _stop_ them, it’s just that sometimes that required lethal force. That was something I always respected about him. \*_Mostly_ didn’t. He _did_ go straight for the heavy artillery a might quick a few times, but it wasn’t like he just waded in killing thugs on sight with a machete. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/28 "2011-04-11T12:01:09Z")
> [@Crab007](#): > > So I’m at the local bookstore today, walking past the comics (which I haven’t been into for a while) and I decide to look at a few, one of them Iron Man Extremis. As I’m flipping through the pages, admiring the artwork, the creativity, the thought pops into my mind that however nasty the bad guy is, Iron Man is not going to kill him, and then on the next page Iron Man blows the bad guy’s head clean off his shoulders. > > This was different, and interesting. Batman would never do such a thing, ever, and here Tony goes and takes the guy out fast and clean like we always wanted them to. So when did Iron Man start killing people? Is this the way he rolls now? Or is it exclusive to the marvel knights category? I really dont see how Tony Stark turning into a killer is any writing feat. Having Superheroes do things “like we always wanted them to” is what led to the horrible Image period of the nineties, where every hero was up to his knees in gore and masturbatory material (I mean bimbos whose combination of gargantuan breasts and impossibly tight waists would have made them crippled in real life). And the end result was…well, some other thread mention “Mary Sue”, well that was the male teenager equivalent of Mary Sue. Kill everyone, shag everyone, (try to) look cool. Fail miserably. Writers must give what readers need, not want. /End of rant. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/29 "2011-04-11T12:26:14Z")
In Avengers #216, after a protracted struggle with the Molecule Man, Tony Stark proceeded towards MM’s chamber with the express intention of killing him. Cap stopped him and in the meantime, Tigra had talked Molecule Man into surrendering. But Tony’s cold, pragmatic side is not a new development. Jim Shooter wrote this story. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/30 "2011-04-11T15:33:43Z")
“No killing” was one of the reasons I loved Daredevil when I was younger. In one of my earlier issues (around #194), he teams up with Wolverine, who I didn’t like at all, because he killed people. The worst I ever saw Daredevil do, in those early days at least, was drop Bullseye from several stories up, shattering most of his bones. Having just killed Elektra, Bullseye had that one coming. Edit: it was actually issue #196. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/31 "2011-04-11T16:29:50Z")
Also, at the end of the Kree-Shiar war storyline in “operation Galactic Storm”, the Avengers were split over what to do with the Kree Supreme Intelligence, who had been captured. He had just committed genocide against his own people, killing billions. The Avengers split into two teams, one led by Cap, who wanted to walk away, and the other led by Iron Man, who wanted to kill the Supreme Intelligence. I seem to remember that they said he wasn’t technically sentient, being more of a giant computer, but Cap disagreed. Iron Man overruled Cap (claiming he was a senior avenger, as he was a founder member) and led his team to execute the Supreme Intelligence in his jar (although it transferred its mind into a waiting Skrull ship, so maybe he was a computer after all) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/32 "2011-04-11T16:51:44Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Feh. If not for him, then they’d be dead. They took for granted all the times he never let them down—if he went crazy, would _they_ be there holding his hand? > > 😃 > > Oddly enough, I think this is close to the Tim Burton version of Batman. I always got the impression that he didn’t\* _set out_ to specifically kill people—he went out to _stop_ them, it’s just that sometimes that required lethal force. That was something I always respected about him. > \*_Mostly_ didn’t. He _did_ go straight for the heavy artillery a might quick a few times, but it wasn’t like he just waded in killing thugs on sight with a machete. I agree that Burton’s Batman didn’t set out to kill anyone but the Joker, who was a dead man from the second Bruce figured out he’d killed the Waynes. He wasn’t weeping about the death of the various henchmen he offed, though. Of course, he was doing everything he could to keep Selina Kyle alive. > [@Bakhesh](#): > > Also, at the end of the Kree-Shiar war storyline in “operation Galactic Storm”, the Avengers were split over what to do with the Kree Supreme Intelligence, who had been captured. He had just committed genocide against his own people, killing billions. The Avengers split into two teams, one led by Cap, who wanted to walk away, and the other led by Iron Man, who wanted to kill the Supreme Intelligence. I seem to remember that they said he wasn’t technically sentient, being more of a giant computer, but Cap disagreed. > > Iron Man overruled Cap (claiming he was a senior avenger, as he was a founder member) and > led his team to execute the Supreme Intelligence in his jar (although it transferred its mind into a waiting Skrull ship, so maybe he was a computer after all) Cap was right in this instance. That wasn’t a battlefield killing; it was a cold-blooded murder. Iron Man was simply lying to himself and asserting his basic assholery. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/33 "2011-04-11T18:27:56Z")
The Supreme Intelligence being a computer doesn’t neccesarily mean it’s not sentient; in the Marvel Universe, there are any number of sentient robots/computers. Some served on the Avengers. In any case, the Supreme Intelligence definitely has a will of its own; despite the Kree’s wishes, it refused to create a Cosmic Cube, fearing its destructive power. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/34 "2011-04-12T01:21:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I agree that Burton’s Batman didn’t set out to kill anyone but the Joker That’s a pretty big explosion the remote-controlled Batmobile sets off at the Axis Chemical factory. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/35 "2011-04-12T11:57:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That’s a pretty big explosion the remote-controlled Batmobile sets off at the Axis Chemical factory. Technically, I think he thought the Joker was _in_ there, at the time. The henchmen who got blown up would be…what, “collateral damage”? “Targets of opportunity”? One presumes (or just hopes) that anyone who worked at the plant who _wasn’t_ culpable in the chemical attacks wasn’t there at the time. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/36 "2011-04-12T12:34:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That’s a pretty big explosion the remote-controlled Batmobile sets off at the Axis Chemical factory. Including the bomb dropped right between the henchman’s legs. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789/37 "2011-04-12T12:34:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That’s a pretty big explosion the remote-controlled Batmobile sets off at the Axis Chemical factory. I didn’t write that he never deliberately killed anyone, just that he didn’t set out (i.e., when beginning his general mission) to kill bad guys. He’s not the Punisher. I’ve always taken it tha t a lot of people were killed at Axis Chemical, but even if you decide that he gave them time to get out, he inarguably killed at least one henchmen while heading up the bell tower, and of course the Joker himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/iron-man-surprised-me-today/577789.md?page=1)