# Irrational Fear of the Week: Trump Signs Executive Order Banning Mail-In Ballots. (Can He Do This?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 21, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266 "2020-05-21T23:06:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/21 "2020-05-22T12:28:36Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I hope that pro-democracy Governors are developing plans to take over USPS and other federal agencies within their state territories. > > Timing and surprise will be critical. I hope there are pro-democracy “rebels” in place at NSA and elsewhere ready to help restore democracy. Sorry. The “adults in the room” ship has sailed. There were precious few to start with, and the remaining few are heading for the exits. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/22 "2020-05-22T12:34:05Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Why not? > > In the early republic, the legislature commonly picked the electors. I don’t see why they can’t delegate this to the governor, just as they can delegate it to voters. > > Pennsylvania, at the constitutional convention, wanted a popular vote for president. We lost. I think it’s too late in the game for most states to take up a constitutional amendment to eliminate their respective popular votes (which is what it would take). And as I said before, I don’t think they really want to. Even Republican voters know this could cut starkly against their interests in the future. Better to elect Republican governors and secretaries-of-state who can manipulate the election in their favor. That would afford a veneer of legitimacy and a more reliable outcome (IMO) ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/23 "2020-05-22T12:54:41Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > FWIW I don’t think every single red-state governor will cancel or compromise their elections. How many governors actually have the power to unilaterally cancel their elections? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/24 "2020-05-22T13:13:32Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The Postal Service is an independent federal establishment and the President has basically zero control over it, except for appointing the Board of Governors. And when you consider that Trump and the other Republicans have been going out of their way to try to kill the postal service for years now, it’s quite likely that they’d tell Trump to get fucked if he issued such an order. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/25 "2020-05-22T14:05:42Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > How many governors actually have the power to unilaterally cancel their elections? To outright cancel it… I don’t know that any can do this without legislation (worth mentioning that many state legislatures are Republican-held). Governors can do a lot to manipulate turnout, and I’m thinking mainly right now about the ability to relocate or delay elections due to a state of emergency. The strategy would be to add enough burden to citizens while creating an aura of confusion that dissuades or prevents people from voting. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/26 "2020-05-22T16:28:22Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The Postal Service is an independent federal establishment and the President has basically zero control over it, except for appointing the Board of Governors. True, but he can always decide to play with its funding. > **[The U.S. Postal Service Needs Help Now: ‘The Situation Is Absolutely Dire’](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/will-republicans-help-the-coronavirus-kill-the-post-office.html)** > > A conversation with Mark Dimondstein, the president of the American Postal Workers Union. The USPS was already facing an uncertain financial future and COVID-19 has delivered an even more devastating blow. The post office will need taxpayer funding, and it’s the president who will negotiate what it gets, and what it doesn’t, and when, and for what purpose. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/27 "2020-05-22T16:35:33Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > To outright cancel it… I don’t know that any can do this without legislation (worth mentioning that many state legislatures are Republican-held). > > Governors can do a lot to manipulate turnout, and I’m thinking mainly right now about the ability to relocate or delay elections due to a state of emergency. The strategy would be to add enough burden to citizens while creating an aura of confusion that dissuades or prevents people from voting. They wouldn’t need to cancel; they could deliberately misinform. They could threaten to shut down voting stations but ultimately leave them open at the last minute. They can also “monitor” voting as well (i.e. voter intimidation). They will do whatever it takes to disrupt the normal voting. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/28 "2020-05-23T01:09:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > At what remove is a republican form of government still met? Might be a good GD question. The U.S. Constitution does “guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,” without ever saying that the U.S. as a whole has to be a republic. I think the essential features of a Republic are: – No hereditary ruler – The leaders, directly or indirectly, are chosen by an electorate which is larger than the body of leaders The expectation, in most states except mine, when the U.S. Constitution was written, was that a state legislature, elected by white men with substantial property, would in turn choose the electors. Constitutional amendments expanded the electorate, but have nothing to say regarding whether electors have to be directly chosen. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/29 "2020-05-23T21:01:52Z")
Let’s just say that Trump somehow prevents mailed votes from being counted. Is there any reason to believe that more Democrats vote by mail? ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/30 "2020-05-23T21:17:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem is the Postal Service is a federal agency. What happens if Trump orders them to discard any mail-in ballots that he’s declared are illegal? How would the post office know these are ballots? They’re not supposed to open envelopes. Do they have special envelopes? Can you just put those in larger envelopes? Would employees in red states toss them while those in blue states deliver them? And wouldn’t that be profoundly undemocratic? Any attempt to stop mail balloting has to be done at the state level. Most likely, they would just cancel the production of mail ballots in the first place, which is safest if you’re a red state governor trying to (stealthily) weigh the election in favor of Trump. In theory, a governor could order all those ballots thrown out. The political cost would be tremendous, the opinion of the US would fall even further, and there would be riots in the streets. (The Communist government of Serbia fell over such shenanigans. Everyone knew their elections were a sham, but when they saw actual evidence of this, there was a lot of rage in the air.) ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/31 "2020-05-23T21:59:24Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > How would the post office know these are ballots? They’re not supposed to open envelopes. Do they have special envelopes? Can you just put those in larger envelopes? Would employees in red states toss them while those in blue states deliver them? And wouldn’t that be profoundly undemocratic? > > Any attempt to stop mail balloting has to be done at the state level. Most likely, they would just cancel the production of mail ballots in the first place, which is safest if you’re a red state governor trying to (stealthily) weigh the election in favor of Trump. > > In theory, a governor could order all those ballots thrown out. The political cost would be tremendous, the opinion of the US would fall even further, and there would be riots in the streets. (The Communist government of Serbia fell over such shenanigans. Everyone knew their elections were a sham, but when they saw actual evidence of this, there was a lot of rage in the air.) I really do think this is what would happen. It takes a lot to get people in this country to march in the streets. We saw some demonstrations after Trump got elected, but they petered out after a couple of months. But a blatant stolen election, jeez, it is hard to imagine something like the French or Russian revolutions happening in this country, or the fall of the Soviet Union, or Serbia as you mention, but it could happen However, 42% of this country still supports this…[insert your own description]. 42 fucking percent. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/32 "2020-05-23T22:06:57Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > Let’s just say that Trump somehow prevents mailed votes from being counted. Is there any reason to believe that more Democrats vote by mail? I can’t find it now, but I just read an article from a reputable news source that says no. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/33 "2020-05-23T23:05:36Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > How would the post office know these are ballots? They’re not supposed to open envelopes. Do they have special envelopes? Can you just put those in larger envelopes? Would employees in red states toss them while those in blue states deliver them? And wouldn’t that be profoundly undemocratic? > > Any attempt to stop mail balloting has to be done at the state level. Most likely, they would just cancel the production of mail ballots in the first place, which is safest if you’re a red state governor trying to (stealthily) weigh the election in favor of Trump. > > In theory, a governor could order all those ballots thrown out. The political cost would be tremendous, the opinion of the US would fall even further, and there would be riots in the streets. (The Communist government of Serbia fell over such shenanigans. Everyone knew their elections were a sham, but when they saw actual evidence of this, there was a lot of rage in the air.) Mine was definitely in a special envelope, and said what it was on the outside. Deliberately failing to deliver mail, or intentionally destroying it, is a Federal crime. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/34 "2020-05-23T23:40:46Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Mine was definitely in a special envelope, and said what it was on the outside. Mine, too. > [@](#): > > Deliberately failing to deliver mail, or intentionally destroying it, is a Federal crime. And who’s going to enforce it? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/35 "2020-05-24T00:24:40Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Mine was definitely in a special envelope, and said what it was on the outside. There’s even an [Official Election Mail™ logo](https://about.usps.com/election-mail/design-election-mail.htm) for any vote-by-mail items, whether the ballot being mailed out, the return envelope, or any other official mailing. > [@](#): > > Deliberately failing to deliver mail, or intentionally destroying it, is a Federal crime. > [@ThelmaLou](#): > > And who’s going to enforce it? Postal inspectors, one would hope. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/36 "2020-05-24T01:26:53Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > How would the post office know these are ballots? Well…they’d have an address on them and that would be a big clue. ---
**Author:** ![Tabco](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tabco/32/7644_2.png) [@Tabco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabco)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/37 "2020-05-24T01:30:31Z")
The mail-in ballots in Oregon are very distinctive. I imagine most voting Oregonians would recognize them instantly. The ballot comes with an optional secrecy sleeve that you can place the ballot in, before inserting the whole thing in the envelope. Supposing the USPS were somehow rendered unable to perform, that would leave drop boxes. That’s usually the method I employ when sending in my ballot. Also, Oregonians can track their ballot online to confirm if it’s been received or not. I suppose the system could “go down” and in conjunction with an inoperative USPS, we’d have a situation where nobody knows if their ballot was counted or not. I really don’t think this is a likely scenario, though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/38 "2020-05-24T01:31:41Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Deliberately failing to deliver mail, or intentionally destroying it, is a Federal crime. I think that only applies to legal mail. If I tried to mail a bomb to somebody, the Post Office would not be legally bound to deliver it. If Trump issues an executive order saying mail-in ballots are illegal, then the Post Office is not required to deliver them. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/39 "2020-05-24T03:35:05Z")
One effect would be the end of Cory Gardner’s reelection bid. Colorado has a bipartisan majority that is very in favor of mail in voting. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266/40 "2020-05-24T04:08:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If Trump issues an executive order saying mail-in ballots are illegal, then the Post Office is not required to deliver them. I’m not sure Trump has the authority to declare some type of mail to be illegal. The Postal Service is no longer in the executive branch, so executive orders should no longer apply to them. Also, since he votes by absentee ballot, he’d be declaring his own vote to be illegal. And can you imagine the uproar there’d be if he tried something like this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irrational-fear-of-the-week-trump-signs-executive-order-banning-mail-in-ballots-can-he-do-this/854266.md?page=3)