# Irregular English plurals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 6, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144 "2006-12-06T23:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/1 "2006-12-06T23:26:15Z")
Last night I came across an interesting statement in an old _Guinness Book of Answers_ from 1976. It said that only thirteen irregular plurals survived in the English language. The irregular plurals were listed as: 1. brother - brothers/brethren 2. child - children 3. cow - cows/kine 4. die - dice 5. foot - feet 6. goose - geese 7. louse - lice 8. man - men 9. mouse - mice 10. ox - oxen 11. penny - pennies/pence 12. tooth - teeth 13. woman - women There was no definition of “irregular plural” but I assume it was one where the plural wasn’t formed by adding s, es or ies. From a 1976 viewpoint I can accept “brethren”. One still hears it occasionally now in religious contexts. “Pence” too may still have been current in the UK. But I’d have thought that even in 1976 “kine” was archaic. Even so, a total of thirteen irregular plurals seems remarkably low to me for the whole English language. Without using examples based on the Guinness list (e.g. stepchild / stepchildren) can anyone provide additional examples of irregular plurals? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/2 "2006-12-06T23:31:42Z")
Do leaves and thieves not count? Or all the pile of words from Latin (syllabi, media, etc)? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/3 "2006-12-06T23:32:41Z")
“Pence” is still current in the UK. There are also the plurals that don’t change the word: sheep, fish, fruit, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/4 "2006-12-06T23:35:34Z")
There are a lot of Anglicized loan words that have what could be called irregular plurals. Of the top of my head: locus - loci genus - genera octopus - octopodes These probably aren’t what you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/5 "2006-12-06T23:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=capybara] Do leaves and thieves not count? [/QUOTE] Presumably not. I assume removal of the final letter and addition of ies wasn’t considered “irregular”. Possibly Guinness aslo excluded Latin/Greek plurals. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/6 "2006-12-06T23:40:42Z")
Whar about “data”? That one should count ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/7 "2006-12-06T23:43:47Z")
**Data** A datum is a statement accepted at face value (a “given”).Data is the plural of datum. A large class of practically important statements are measurements or observations of a variable.Such statements may comprise numbers, words, or images. > **[Data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data)** > > In common usage and statistics, data (US: /ˈdætə/; UK: /ˈdeɪtə/) is a collection of discrete or continuous values that convey information, describing the quantity, quality, fact, statistics, other basic units of meaning, or simply sequences of symbols that may be further interpreted formally. A datum is an individual value in a collection of data. Data is usually organized into structures such as tables that provide additional context and meaning, and which may themselves be used as data in la... [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:data&sa=X&oi=glossary\_definition&ct=title](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:data&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/8 "2006-12-06T23:45:06Z")
But the most glaring ommision seems to be the feminine -ix titles: aviatrix, dominatrix etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/9 "2006-12-06T23:52:09Z")
Then, technically, die \> dice shouldn’t count. The spelling disguises it, but it actually is the regular + s ending, with an archaic pronunciation. (Apparently, in Middle English, they all ended in an }ess{ sound, only changing to }ezz{ in the Early Modern period. “Bodice” is supposedly from “bodies,” the old pronunciation only preserved in the garment. A lot of archaic plurals remain in the dialects: shoon, eyen. I would argue that both “brethren” and “kine” are archaic, and standard English speakers say “brothers” and “cows / cattle.” “Oxes” is also sometimes used, though it sounds wrong to me. “Pence” might not count, either, since it’s an old possessive plural used for quantity. The plural of “penny” (the coin) is “pennies,” and “pence” is only used for amounts. This is all based on hazy memories of a book on Early Modern English grammar, so if I’m wrong, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/10 "2006-12-06T23:52:33Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] But the most glaring ommision seems to be the feminine -ix titles: aviatrix, dominatrix etc. [/QUOTE] Presumably the plural form aviatrixes was not considered irregular since it merely added es. And the Latinised plural, aviatrices, was likely excluded to prevent the hundreds of Latin/Greek examples going onto the list. It would certainly have been more helpful had some definitions been included with the list. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/11 "2006-12-06T23:57:03Z")
The women in their chateaux discussed whether female dwarves, elves, or homunculi would make good aviatrices, as the sheep, the cattle, and the oxen grazed in the meadows outside. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/12 "2006-12-07T00:35:41Z")
It looks like it takes consideration only of words coming from Middle English and not directly from other sources like Latin Greek German French etc. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/13 "2006-12-07T01:06:36Z")
[QUOTE=Bippy the Beardless] It looks like it takes consideration only of words coming from Middle English and not directly from other sources like Latin Greek German French etc. [/QUOTE] Old English (or even earlier). Many of the common Romance Language loan words (Latin and French, if not Spanish and Italian) were a part of Middle English, and even Old English had a number of Latin loan words. How about the plural of I –\> we? Or He/Her –\> They? Do those count as irregular? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/14 "2006-12-07T01:09:10Z")
What about sheep and fish which are also the plural forms. Those must be words from old English, though I supposed there might well have been different plurals in old English. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/15 "2006-12-07T01:14:07Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Old English (or even earlier). Many of the common Romance Language loan words (Latin and French, if not Spanish and Italian) were a part of Middle English, and even Old English had a number of Latin loan words. How about the plural of I –\> we? Or He/Her –\> They? Do those count as irregular? [/QUOTE] The OP didn’t state it, but I assume it meant irregular plural _nouns_. “I”, “he”, “we”, “they”, etc. are _pronouns_. FYI, “we” and “they” are classified as plural pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/16 "2006-12-07T01:14:56Z")
The list also seems fairly random in that it includes “man” and “woman” as two seperate words despite a single common root. After all the only reason that woman is irregular because it is a conjunction of “wife” and “man”. But if they are allowing conjuctions of that sort then why exclude “stepchildren”, “doormice”, “clubfoot” or the literally thousands of similar conjunctions? It seems really odd that “woman” is considered a separate and distinct word to “man” but that “postman” is not. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/17 "2006-12-07T03:43:08Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] The women in their chateaux discussed whether female dwarves, elves, or homunculi would make good aviatrices, as the sheep, the cattle, and the oxen grazed in the meadows outside. [/QUOTE] The plural of dwarf is/was dwarfs. Tolkien popularized the -ves variant, and that is now the standard, especially in fantasy contexts. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/18 "2006-12-07T04:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=thelurkinghorror] The plural of dwarf is/was dwarfs. Tolkien popularized the -ves variant, and that is now the standard, especially in fantasy contexts. [/QUOTE] Yes, exactly. Historically, the -F is actually a -G. This makes more sense when you think of words like tough, laugh, cough, etc., and the German cognate word for dwarf, _Zwerg_. If only we spelled it _dwargh_ and _dwarghs_: The dwargh laughs at the thief’s knife / dwarghs laugh at thieves’ knives. Stupid language. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/19 "2006-12-07T07:27:23Z")
[QUOTE=OldGuy] What about sheep and fish which are also the plural forms. Those must be words from old English, though I supposed there might well have been different plurals in old English. [/QUOTE] Also moose ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2006, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144/20 "2006-12-07T08:17:07Z")
I think the list in the OP is words that have a unique word for its plural that is not subject the regular rules of ANY language; all the subsequent examples offered in the thread are regular in the “home” language, and subject to those rules. Irregular = ain’t no rule, it just is. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irregular-english-plurals/383144.md?page=2)