# IRS Threatens Church for Anti-War Sermon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032 "2005-11-08T13:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/181 "2005-11-10T18:14:46Z")
**mswas** , I want to be fair so I’m going to give you a chance to clear up any misunderstanding before it starts. Are you aware that “European bankers” has sometimes been used as a code for “Jews?” Is it your intent to hint at anything like that and if not, could you please make that plain so that we don’t have to wonder about what you may be suggesting. I’m not willing to accuse you of buying into Zionist conspiracy theories so could you please remove any doubt by unequivocally separating yourself from those kind of nutjobs right now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/182 "2005-11-10T18:17:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t think the illuminati rule is an idiot. The smarter more enlightened people have more power than the dumber ditch diggers. I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch. For instance, George HW Bush who was a member of skull and bones like so many prominent families, has a lot of power in this world. If you think that’s extremist then may you not walk into a lamp post as you move around with your eyes tightly shut. The word Illuminati is an epithet that was created for Freemasons. It was meant to be insulting originally. The Illuminati fnord do not exist. fnord ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/183 "2005-11-10T18:17:49Z")
[QUOTE=mswas Look up the word conspiracy would you? It means they are working together with evil intent. I never implied evil intent. I only implied that the ancient networks still existed, that they didn’t just disappear, they only faded into the background. If you think that the Queen of England can’t influence foreign policy you’re daft. Erek[/QUOTE] But the example you used is factually incorrect Perhaps this ignorance is at the root of your interesting ideas ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/184 "2005-11-10T18:23:44Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Wow. Stay away from a thread for a day and you miss a lot! > > The illumati. Hadn’t heard that one in awhile. :eek: By Illuminati I mean “The smart people”. **treis** Your naive cite wasn’t helpful. BTW, I already knew the information you posted. The federal reserve is banks regulating themselves, and printing money. The economists that get hired to work there are hired from the Banking system. Do you even understand how politics works? Certainly there are rules about how the system has to run, but you can’t eliminate human relationships from the equation. Do you really think that the people running the federal reserve are not politically connected in their field? Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/185 "2005-11-10T18:28:29Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > The Illuminati fnord do not exist. fnord You dispute the existence of smart people in positions of power? Erek ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/186 "2005-11-10T18:30:46Z")
Ever if what you say is true thats still a long was away from European nobility owning the Fed. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/187 "2005-11-10T18:37:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > By Illuminati I mean “The smart people”. Just out of curiosity, do you see yourself as an “Illuminatus”? If you mean “the smart people,” why not say “the smart people”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/188 "2005-11-10T18:40:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You dispute the existence of smart people in positions of power? > > Erek The Illuminati are a specific historical/fictional society, not “smart people”. And as a rule, no, smart people don’t end up in power; stupid ones who are obsessed/ruthless/connected do - like Bush. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/189 "2005-11-10T18:48:51Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Ever if what you say is true thats still a long was away from European nobility owning the Fed. The thing that I was disputing was that European nobility didn’t still have power, that they are merely figureheads and irrelevant. I used one example. Do you dispute the idea that European nobles are shareholders in big multinational banks like UBS or BCCI? Yes or No? Do you disptute that European Nobles can get a meeting with heads of state? Yes or No? Do you dispute that once in these meetings they can influence opinion with political leverage? Yes or No? Do you dispute that a lot of policy is decided at secret closed door meetings prior to enacting it as legislation? Yes or No? Basically, what I am getting at is that the government is not the end all be all of power. It’s not meant to be, and it’s only there for as long as it’s useful. Equality isn’t a zero sum game. Some people benefit in some ways and others benefit in others and there isn’t a simple equation that shows what those benefits are. Politics isn’t as simple as just, “I don’t get tax-exempt so they shouldn’t either.” You’re looking down the ladder at those below you and wanting to remove what little they have, rather than looking at the ladder above you to see what’s being taken. I guarantee you removing tax-exempt isn’t going to fuck up people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, it’ll only make them more powerful, while disenfranchising a whole lot of poor people. You can’t just look at the structure of the entities that affect your life, you also need to look at the actors that are navigating these hierarchies if you ever truly hope to understand what’s going on. Basically, my post about “The Great Satan” is referring to a society that looks at only the most shallow aspects of the things they are addressing. It’s all surface, people aren’t looking a whole lot deeper. By advocating removal of tax exemption you are looking to move a foundation stone in our society, without looking at all the superstructure built up on top of it that has to be moved first lest it topple to the ground. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/190 "2005-11-10T18:55:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Just out of curiosity, do you see yourself as an “Illuminatus”? > > If you mean “the smart people,” why not say “the smart people”? I didn’t introduce the word “Illuminati” to the debate. I mentioned European nobility. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > The Illuminati are a specific historical/fictional society, not “smart people”. And as a rule, no, smart people don’t end up in power; stupid ones who are obsessed/ruthless/connected do - like Bush. Do you honestly believe this? Do people get connected in a vacuum? Is Bush not connected because of who his family was? Is he not descended from smart people on down the line? Besides you are judging Bush by seperate criteria than you would judge the average person. You are judging him for not being able to run a war properly. But he’s done a lot of really smart things, and he’s known for being extremly charismatic and able to influence people. You don’t even understand the game being played but find yourself worthy of judging it. I’m not saying he’s the smartest of those people, but he’s also not the only one in power. Do you dispute that his father is smart? What about his buddy Prince Bandar al Saud? Are they stupid people? What about James Baker? Is he stupid? Would you know how to run a company like Harken oil, drilling for dry wells, and then parlay it into political capital by selling it to the Saudis so they could have a legitimate front and access to the President in America? Did you know that Harken oil, one of Bush’s big failures was also a gambit being played by other stupid people such as George Soros, and Harvard University, before they eventually sold it to the Saudis? At Bush’s level, being unable to manipulate world markets smoothly is what makes one stupid, it’s a far cry from saying really dumb shit on a message board stupid. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/191 "2005-11-10T18:57:10Z")
**jsgoddess** If I were illuminatus, would I be arguing with atheists on an internet message board about something I know they are never going to influence? Erek ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/192 "2005-11-10T19:03:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **jsgoddess** If I were illuminatus, would I be arguing with atheists on an internet message board about something I know they are never going to influence? So, you’re not one of the smart people? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/193 "2005-11-10T19:04:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, you’re not one of the smart people? Not at the level we’re talking about no. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/194 "2005-11-10T19:10:37Z")
If someone is in power, they are automatically smarter than you? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/195 "2005-11-10T19:20:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If someone is in power, they are automatically smarter than you? I’m not going to get into a new argument that lacks nuance of any sort. If you want to have a serious discussion let me know. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/196 "2005-11-10T19:24:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **jsgoddess** If I were illuminatus, would I be arguing with atheists on an internet message board about something I know they are never going to influence? > > Erek Well… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/197 "2005-11-10T19:32:37Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’m not going to get into a new argument that lacks nuance of any sort. If you want to have a serious discussion let me know. You think you’re God and that a European cabal controls the banking system of the US and you think you’re having a serious discussion? All you need is to start screaming that I should follow your instructions TO THE LETTER to make the thread complete. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/198 "2005-11-10T20:00:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You think you’re God and that a European cabal controls the banking system of the US and you think you’re having a serious discussion? All you need is to start screaming that I should follow your instructions TO THE LETTER to make the thread complete. What you infer, and what I say just might be two different things. You were asking yes or no questions that didn’t have yes or no answers. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/199 "2005-11-10T20:01:31Z")
Oh and by the way, I had no instructions for you to follow. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/200 "2005-11-10T20:21:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Oh and by the way, I had no instructions for you to follow. She did not say you had; she alluded to a recent poster in a reference to comparative sanity. We will not extend discussion of that comparison in **GD** so as to avoid any unpleasant turns in this thread. So far, no harm, no foul–and it will stay that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032.md?page=11)