# IRS Threatens Church for Anti-War Sermon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032 "2005-11-08T13:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/61 "2005-11-08T22:26:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So only the wealthy are allowed to have churches then, as the poor pentecostal church cannot afford it’s $ 190,000 tax bill. Maybe the wealthy churches can donate to the poor churches, or maybe the poor churches can meet in the local gym/school/large gathering area. Either way, I fail to see why the government should be concerned about who can go to church or who can’t. > [@mswas](#): > > It’s actually quite difficult to organize community initiatives in a bar. I have extensive experience with this one. 😛 Point taken but my argument is still valid. There are plenty of places besides a church where communities can gather. Plus I think you vastly underestimate the material wealth and income of churches. I seriously doubt there would be mass closure of poor churches if their tax exempt status is revoked. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/62 "2005-11-08T22:34:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Maybe the wealthy churches can donate to the poor churches, or maybe the poor churches can meet in the local gym/school/large gathering area. Either way, I fail to see why the government should be concerned about who can go to church or who can’t. I fail to see why the people should care about the government’s notion of property taxes. > [@](#): > > 😛 Point taken but my argument is still valid. There are plenty of places besides a church where communities can gather. Plus I think you vastly underestimate the material wealth and income of churches. I seriously doubt there would be mass closure of poor churches if their tax exempt status is revoked. What about a religion like Pentecostals where it is a religion of the poor. There are churches in my neighborhood whose land value would probably be pretty high, based upon the rising property values in New York City. Should I go take a photo of one of these churches and ask you if you think that these churches in the ghetto can afford $ 190,000 per year in property taxes? I think you vastly overestimate the income of poor churches. Many can barely afford the upkeep of their church. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/63 "2005-11-08T22:39:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > To state my argument clearly rather than cleverly: you misrepresent the church’s position as being solely an advocate against war. In fact, the sermon also inveighed against tax cuts, opined that Jesus would be saddened by tax cuts and by Bush’s positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons, said that there is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child, and that Bush values the lives of American babies more than Iraqi babies. > > I see the shitting continues. How so? Why is that “shitting”? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/64 "2005-11-08T22:42:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How so? Why is that “shitting”? While I disagree that a church should not be a political center fundamentally. I do see your point about bashing Bush specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/65 "2005-11-08T22:44:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > While I disagree that a church should not be a political center fundamentally. > > I do see your point about bashing Bush specifically. Thanks. And that’s exavtly what this sermon did. I’m having trouble figuring out if **treis** means that he doesn’t believe me when I say those items were in the sermon as well, or whether he feels that bringing up those points is somehow not valid in the context of debate. I hope he’ll clarify. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/66 "2005-11-08T22:46:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I fail to see why the people should care about the government’s notion of property taxes. Well I don’t know how to explain to you why people that are being taxed care how they are being taxed. > [@mswas](#): > > What about a religion like Pentecostals where it is a religion of the poor. There are churches in my neighborhood whose land value would probably be pretty high, based upon the rising property values in New York City. Should I go take a photo of one of these churches and ask you if you think that these churches in the ghetto can afford $ 190,000 per year in property taxes? I think you vastly overestimate the income of poor churches. Many can barely afford the upkeep of their church. > > Erek Jeez almost 200Gs for property taxes? That means the property is worth what, at least a million? Easy solution then, sell the church, invest the money and lease out the local schools gym for sundays. If you don’t want to sell the church then might I suggest you start a fundraiser. **Bricker** - Either you have a lot more information about the sermon than the rest of us or you are being facetious and ignoring the meat of the argument. I suspect its the latter and I consider that in light of your previous posts in this thread to be a contiuation of the shitting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/67 "2005-11-08T22:53:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Well I don’t know how to explain to you why people that are being taxed care how they are being taxed. That’s not what I asked. What I am asking is why should us religious people AKA the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY care about the taxes levied by the secular institution? > [@](#): > > Jeez almost 200Gs for property taxes? That means the property is worth what, at least a million? Easy solution then, sell the church, invest the money and lease out the local schools gym for sundays. If you don’t want to sell the church then might I suggest you start a fundraiser. So you’re saying commodifying the religion is the appropriate answer? Sell the church so that you are no longer in the community you once belonged in, and get the heck out of dodge? As for leasing the school’s gym, what if I wanted to do something at 1PM on a Tuesday? And yes the example I gave was where the property is worth $ 1million. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/68 "2005-11-08T22:57:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > **Bricker** - Either you have a lot more information about the sermon than the rest of us or you are being facetious and ignoring the meat of the argument. I suspect its the latter and I consider that in light of your previous posts in this thread to be a contiuation of the shitting. Ahhh! From [url=“[http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-allsaints7nov07,1,597130.story](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-allsaints7nov07,1,597130.story)”]here: > [@](#): > > The IRS cited The Times story’s description of the sermon as a “searing indictment of the Bush administration’s policies in Iraq” and noted that the sermon described “tax cuts as inimical to the values of Jesus.” > . > . > . > Regas’ 2004 sermon imagined how Jesus would admonish Bush and Kerry if he debated them. Regas never urged parishioners to vote for one candidate over the other, but he did say that he believes Jesus would oppose the war in Iraq, and that Jesus would be saddened by Bush’s positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons. > . > . > . > “I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.” > . > . > . > There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child. > > When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, “take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.” So how is what I said “shitting”, **treis**? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/69 "2005-11-08T22:59:49Z")
Corrected [link](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,842003.story?page=2&track=hpmostemailedlink). ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/70 "2005-11-08T23:20:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s not what I asked. What I am asking is why should us religious people AKA the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY care about the taxes levied by the secular institution? Becuase the secular institution has big guns and will sieze assets if the taxes aren’t paid? Seriously, I don’t get what you are asking here. > [@mswas](#): > > So you’re saying commodifying the religion is the appropriate answer? Commodifying? Is religion commodified by having to pay the power bill or the heating bill? Why are taxes any different? > [@mswas](#): > > Sell the church so that you are no longer in the community you once belonged in, and get the heck out of dodge? Or start a fundraiser to make up for the subsidy you would no longer be getting from the government. > [@mswas](#): > > As for leasing the school’s gym, what if I wanted to do something at 1PM on a Tuesday? And yes the example I gave was where the property is worth $ 1million. What you think there is a God given right to meet in a fancy church whenever the heck you want? > [@](#): > > In the sermon, Regas said, "President Bush has led us into war with Iraq as a response to terrorism. Yet I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: ‘War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq.’ " > > Later, he had Jesus confront both Kerry and Bush: “I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.” > > If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, "Why is so little mentioned about the poor?’’ > > In his own voice, Regas said: ''The religious right has drowned out everyone else. Now the faith of Jesus has come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war and pro-American…. I’m not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child." > > When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, “take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.” That doesn’t sound like endorsing either canidate rather him expressing his views on current social issues. However, perhaps instead of writing snarky and sarcastic replies you could put together a post explaining why you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/71 "2005-11-08T23:24:36Z")
I see he was critical of both Bush and Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/72 "2005-11-08T23:26:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Becuase the secular institution has big guns and will sieze assets if the taxes aren’t paid? Seriously, I don’t get what you are asking here. Are you referring to the M-16s in the hands of the good christian boys? > [@](#): > > Commodifying? Is religion commodified by having to pay the power bill or the heating bill? Why are taxes any different? Yes actually it is commodified by that, but property taxes specifically remove any ability to NOT use land commercially. > [@](#): > > Or start a fundraiser to make up for the subsidy you would no longer be getting from the government. You are GIVEN a subsidy. Not paying taxes is not being given anything, it’s not having something taken from you. > [@](#): > > What you think there is a God given right to meet in a fancy church whenever the heck you want? We aren’t talking about the fancy ones, the fancy ones would probably be able to afford the exhorbitant taxes. But is there a God given right to meet in a church whenever the heck you want? Yes. While I agree that no one religion should be respected over another, I believe that religious authority trumps the state. (Though of course I think that you are merely advocating that Mammonism trump other religious institutions.) Erek ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/73 "2005-11-08T23:34:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Are you referring to the M-16s in the hands of the good christian boys? I am referring to the pistols, shotguns and M-16s in the hands of the secular police. > [@mswas](#): > > Yes actually it is commodified by that, but property taxes specifically remove any ability to NOT use land commercially. Thats not true at all. People don’t use their homes commercially and yet are still taxed. > [@mswas](#): > > You are GIVEN a subsidy. Not paying taxes is not being given anything, it’s not having something taken from you. So the roads leading to the church, the fire department protecting the church, the police, the street sweepers etc. etc. are all magically provided to the church? Of course not, they are paid by property taxes and the church is getting that for free. > [@mswas](#): > > We aren’t talking about the fancy ones, the fancy ones would probably be able to afford the exhorbitant taxes. But is there a God given right to meet in a church whenever the heck you want? Yes. Really? And its the governments duty to provide this? > [@mswas](#): > > While I agree that no one religion should be respected over another, I believe that religious authority trumps the state. (Though of course I think that you are merely advocating that Mammonism trump other religious institutions.) Well its good that this is not true becuase if it were true we might as well not have a secular government. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/74 "2005-11-08T23:55:12Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am referring to the pistols, shotguns and M-16s in the hands of the secular police. In New York the secular police are largely Italian and Irish, meaning largely Catholic. I don’t know how it is where you live, but I’d imagine they are largely churchgoing folk. > [@](#): > > Thats not true at all. People don’t use their homes commercially and yet are still taxed. They are forced to go to work in order to afford that home. Therefore they are forced to live a commercial lifestyle. > [@](#): > > So the roads leading to the church, the fire department protecting the church, the police, the street sweepers etc. etc. are all magically provided to the church? Of course not, they are paid by property taxes and the church is getting that for free. So you are saying the individuals in the church should be taxed twice? Once for their homes once for their church? I wonder how many bake sales it would take to come up with $ 190,000. > [@](#): > > Really? And its the governments duty to provide this? No it is the government’s duty not to impede it. > [@](#): > > Well its good that this is not true becuase if it were true we might as well not have a secular government. It is true, the first amendment is about not respecting one religion over another. It’s a Republic, in which the vast majority are religious. As it is a government by the people and for the people, and most religious people I know believe that God is greater than government, therefore the will of the populace is that religion trumps government. I know there is an atheist fantasy about this country, but the reality is that we do live in a theocracy, it’s just not one that is not about respecting one religion over another. If you doubt me just take a look at the back of the one dollar bill, right in between the pyramid with the All-Seeing eye and the Roman Eagle, you’ll find the words “In God We Trust”. Or with the Marines: Unit, Corps, God, Country. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/75 "2005-11-08T23:57:56Z")
I should say, it’s not one that is about respecting one religion over another. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/76 "2005-11-09T00:00:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Or with the Marines: Unit, Corps, God, Country. Doesn’t that imply that to the marines, State trumps God? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/77 "2005-11-09T00:02:58Z")
**Bricker** , with that additional information (i.e., that the pastor preached against BOTH Bush and Kerry), I withdraw my previous objection to the church. Preaching against a single candidate’s multiple views on the eve of an election appears, everything else being equal, that you’re campaigning on behalf of the opponent–which is a no-no. Preaching against both candidates’ multiple views on the eve of an election appears like you’re taking a preachable moment, which is kosher. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/78 "2005-11-09T00:05:01Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > Doesn’t that imply that to the marines, State trumps God? No Country is the last in the list. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/79 "2005-11-09T00:06:42Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Bricker** , with that additional information (i.e., that the pastor preached against BOTH Bush and Kerry), I withdraw my previous objection to the church. I don’t see how he preached against Kerry. Basically he said (to paraphrase): Jesus would not want either Bush or Kerry to implement Bush’s policies. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/80 "2005-11-09T00:12:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t see how he preached against Kerry. Basically he said (to paraphrase): Jesus would not want either Bush or Kerry to implement Bush’s policies. As Republicans delight in pointing out, Kerry supported the war in Iraq. The minister took them both to task for that war. Was Bush’s involvement greater? Well, yeah. He was the president. Kerry was a Senator. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032.md?page=5)