# IRS Threatens Church for Anti-War Sermon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032 "2005-11-08T13:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/81 "2005-11-09T00:14:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > In New York the secular police are largely Italian and Irish, meaning largely Catholic. I don’t know how it is where you live, but I’d imagine they are largely churchgoing folk. What you think they will all just up and resign instead of collecting taxes from churches? > [@mswas](#): > > They are forced to go to work in order to afford that home. Therefore they are forced to live a commercial lifestyle. Thats not what you said though, you said “property taxes specifically remove any ability to NOT use land commercially.” This, as evidenced by homes, is simply not true. > [@mswas](#): > > So you are saying the individuals in the church should be taxed twice? Once for their homes once for their church? I wonder how many bake sales it would take to come up with $ 190,000. No, the taxes for the homes are for the government services associated with that home. Taxes for the church are for the government services associated with the church. There is no double taxation there. > [@mswas](#): > > No it is the government’s duty not to impede it. How does the government charging for the services it supplies impede someone from going to church? > [@mswas](#): > > It is true, the first amendment is about not respecting one religion over another. It’s a Republic, in which the vast majority are religious. As it is a government by the people and for the people, and most religious people I know believe that God is greater than government, therefore the will of the populace is that religion trumps government. Thats simply not true. Secular authority is clearly above religious authority in terms of the law in America. > [@mswas](#): > > I know there is an atheist fantasy about this country, but the reality is that we do live in a theocracy, it’s just not one that is not about respecting one religion over another. If you doubt me just take a look at the back of the one dollar bill, right in between the pyramid with the All-Seeing eye and the Roman Eagle, you’ll find the words “In God We Trust”. > > Or with the Marines: Unit, Corps, God, Country. I know you think I am deficient but in my opinion we are a ways away from a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/82 "2005-11-09T00:14:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > As Republicans delight in pointing out, Kerry supported the war in Iraq. The minister took them both to task for that war. Was Bush’s involvement greater? Well, yeah. He was the president. Kerry was a Senator. Yeah, I think this case sounds pretty ridiculous personally. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/83 "2005-11-09T00:16:44Z")
What **jsgoddess** said, plus: > [@](#): > > If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, "Why is so little mentioned about the poor?’’ This sounds to me like a criticism of **both** candidates. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/84 "2005-11-09T00:18:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t see how he preached against Kerry. Basically he said (to paraphrase): Jesus would not want either Bush or Kerry to implement Bush’s policies. How is a preacher supposed to speak out against the Iraq war without speaking out against Bush’s policies? Look at his statement regarding the war: > [@](#): > > Later, he had Jesus confront **both Kerry and Bush** : “I will tell you what I think of **your** war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is **your** belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.” The your refers to both Bush and Kerry. He is speaking out against Kerry and Bush’s war, Kerry and Bush’s sin. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/85 "2005-11-09T00:36:14Z")
The idea of a church being a business makes me nauseous. Yes, some of them are like that, but forcing forcing the rest to be… [insert barf smiley] I don’t entirely disagree with wanting to remove their tax-exempt status, but the establishment clause doesn’t mean that the government acts like religion doesn’t exist. Treating a church like a fun house? That can’t be serious. And to those that say that churches shouldn’t get tax breaks on any charity that mentions God: Are you really so cynical as to believe that the motivations behind ALL such activities are nothing more than advertising? Absolutely no missionaries do any good at all? If you wanted to ignore any element of religion in the way you treat churches, then wouldn’t it be more consistant to ignore any proselytizing that went with charity and give it the same benefits as charity sans proselytizing? Putting a bible into a food basket suddenly transforms it into non-charity? As a Christian, I don’t expect churches to get special considerations, but as an American I kind of do. I’m sorry to be wrapping myself up in the flag, but I think religion should be respected in America because it’s important to a lot of the people. And I’m with **bricker** about that sermon being overly political. I don’t really have a problem with it as long as they keep a similarly strict standard for conservative churches. Churches should be grateful that they get a tax-exempt status to begin with, and if they want to say whatever they want then they should be prepared to rend unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/86 "2005-11-09T00:49:46Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > And to those that say that churches shouldn’t get tax breaks on any charity that mentions God: Are you really so cynical as to believe that the motivations behind ALL such activities are nothing more than advertising? Absolutely no missionaries do any good at all? No, but I am not naive enough to believe that it is all out of generosity. I have no problem with charity being tax-exempt but it needs to be 100% charity. > [@Talon Karrde](#): > > If you wanted to ignore any element of religion in the way you treat churches, then wouldn’t it be more consistant to ignore any proselytizing that went with charity and give it the same benefits as charity sans proselytizing? Putting a bible into a food basket suddenly transforms it into non-charity? It makes it both charity and advertising. For the record, I would apply the same standard to secular organizations and religious organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/87 "2005-11-09T00:52:28Z")
For me, I am happy to consider religious charities as charities when they’re engaging in charitable work. PetSmart Charities (for example) is, to the best of my knowledge, nonprofit, and that’s how it should be: even though they’re advertising for PetSmart, they’re also doing charitable work, and it makes sense for them to be nonprofit. However, preachin isn’t charitable. I don’t think that preachin deserves nonprofitosity. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/88 "2005-11-09T00:58:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s not what I asked. What I am asking is why should us religious people AKA the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY care about the taxes levied by the secular institution? What I’d like to know is why, as an atheist, my tax dollars are subsidizing your house of worship. Aside from the obvious fact that there are more of you, and you can do whatever the hell you damn well want to the minority in this country, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/89 "2005-11-09T01:01:47Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No Country is the last in the list. Yeah, but the list is pretty obviously in ascending importance: country before god, god before the marine corp, the marine corp before your unit. Anyway, even if you reversed it, it would still be putting the marine corp before God, and the corp is a secular, government institution. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/90 "2005-11-09T01:35:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > How is a preacher supposed to speak out against the Iraq war without speaking out against Bush’s policies? > > Look at his statement regarding the war: > > The your refers to both Bush and Kerry. He is speaking out against Kerry and Bush’s war, Kerry and Bush’s sin. Yep, like I said, he took them **both** to task for implementing Bush’s policies. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/91 "2005-11-09T01:41:28Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > However, preachin isn’t charitable. I don’t think that preachin deserves nonprofitosity. How is preaching not charitable? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/92 "2005-11-09T01:48:36Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yep, like I said, he took them **both** to task for implementing Bush’s policies. Thats not fair to say, he clearly refers to Bush’s _and_ Kerry’s war. He didn’t say Bush’s war that Kerry decided to go along with, he said both of theirs war. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/93 "2005-11-09T01:49:57Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > How is preaching not charitable? Buh? In the same way that playing chess is not charitable, or singing at an open mic night is not charitable. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/94 "2005-11-09T01:51:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yep, like I said, he took them **both** to task for implementing Bush’s policies. Which means he was not endorsing or advocating for either of them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/95 "2005-11-09T01:52:10Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > How is preaching not charitable? Is this a serious question? How IS it charitable? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/96 "2005-11-09T01:57:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Thats not fair to say, he clearly refers to Bush’s _and_ Kerry’s war. He didn’t say Bush’s war that Kerry decided to go along with, he said both of theirs war. And the tax cuts? I don’t see how anyone could walk away for that sermon and not think the minister was telling them not to vote for Bush. That’s the concern. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/97 "2005-11-09T02:04:20Z")
I think anytime that a priest or minister mentions a candidate by name in the context of a political discussion, he is crossing the line. Mentioning both candidates in the same sermon doesn’t make things any better. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/98 "2005-11-09T02:08:29Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And the tax cuts? You mean this? > [@](#): > > If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, "Why is so little mentioned about the poor?’’ > [@John Mace](#): > > I don’t see how anyone could walk away for that sermon and not think the minister was telling them not to vote for Bush. That’s the concern. Well whats the pastors basic message? The war is bad, abortion is acceptable and neither canidate does enough for the poor. Clearly Kerry is the best canidate for those values but is that enough to revoke the tax exempt status? If so then aren’t you effectively muzzling pastors preaching about politics? Mind you I think that is a good thing in the end but its not right for the government to limit free speach, especially in the religious arena. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/99 "2005-11-09T02:10:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I think anytime that a priest or minister mentions a candidate by name in the context of a political discussion, he is crossing the line. Mentioning both candidates in the same sermon doesn’t make things any better. I think it **does** make things better. From where I stand, the primary problem with churches talking about politicians is when they become essentially a tax-free extension of one candidate’s campaign. When a church is offering harsh criticism of both candidates, it’s difficult to see that church as an extension of either candidate’s campaign. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032/100 "2005-11-09T02:13:10Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I think it **does** make things better. From where I stand, the primary problem with churches talking about politicians is when they become essentially a tax-free extension of one candidate’s campaign. When a church is offering harsh criticism of both candidates, it’s difficult to see that church as an extension of either candidate’s campaign. But in this case, it’s \*\*clearly \*\*harsher criticism of Bush. Even if you ignore the part about the war, he criticized Bush’s tax cuts \*\*and \*\*his position on abortion. Were there \*\*any \*\*Kerry-specific policies that he criticized? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irs-threatens-church-for-anti-war-sermon/330032.md?page=6)