# Irving Berlin **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221 "2012-11-16T18:23:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chocolateart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ab097/32.png) [@Chocolateart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chocolateart)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/1 "2012-11-16T18:23:03Z")
Just to get the records straight on who wrote the song ALEXANDRA’S RAG TIME BAND" The composer was JACK JACOBS, he was my grand father’s brother, the song was written for their band which was Alexandra’s Rag Time Band, they where born in London and the band was formed there before 1911, Irving Berlin bought the music from Jack Jacobs with all rights to the song and music in 1911. Jack Jacobs was a verteose violin player and in later years travelled to New York to play for Joscha Heifetz and another famous Hungarian violinist, he stayed at the Knicket Brocker Hotel whenever he went to America. These are true facts facts that never where made public. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/2 "2012-11-16T18:52:59Z")
Welcome to the Dope, **Chocolateart**. Do you have any documentation for this version of events? Where did you learn of this? And, to make it easier to understand the column in question, it’s customary to post a link to the column. Is this the thread you are referring to? [If Irving Berlin couldn’t read or write music, how did he compose? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2664/if-irving-berlin-could-not-read-or-write-music-how-did-he-compose) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/3 "2012-11-16T19:44:36Z")
I don’t see a problem here: Irving Berlin wrote “Alexander’s Rag Time Band”. and Jack Jacobs wrote “Alexandra’s Rag Time Band”. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberkashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c67d28/32.png) [@Cyberkashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberkashi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/4 "2012-11-27T09:24:22Z")
I know of a Jack Jacobs who was associated with the Irving Berlin music company at that time. I had never heard that Berlin was not the author. Is Jack the brother of Max? Who is your grandfather? > [@Chocolateart](#): > > Just to get the records straight on who wrote the song ALEXANDRA’S RAG TIME BAND" > The composer was JACK JACOBS, he was my grand father’s brother, the song was written for their band which was Alexandra’s Rag Time Band, they where born in London and the band was formed there before 1911, Irving Berlin bought the music from Jack Jacobs with all rights to the song and music in 1911. > > Jack Jacobs was a verteose violin player and in later years travelled to New York to play for Joscha Heifetz and another famous Hungarian violinist, he stayed at the Knicket Brocker Hotel whenever he went to America. > > These are true facts facts that never where made public. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/5 "2012-11-27T12:04:07Z")
There was a [Jacob Jacobs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Jacobs) who was active in vaudeville and Broadway. Not sure about a connection with Irving Berlin, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/6 "2012-11-27T14:08:24Z")
> [@Chocolateart](#): > > These are true facts facts that never where made public. Didn’t we have some poster a few years ago say the same thing about Glen Miller? Something along the lines of “My granddad was with him when he died in Paris brothel battling swamp Nazis” or some such? Does every family have super secret connections with pre WWII popular composers? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/7 "2012-11-27T14:26:27Z")
If that’s true, **Chocolateart,** you need to edit [The Wikipedia entry.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander's_Ragtime_Band) You will probably be asked for cites, so get those in order first. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/8 "2012-11-29T01:42:23Z")
> [@Chocolateart](#): > > Just to get the records straight on who wrote the song ALEXANDRA’S RAG TIME BAND" > The composer was JACK JACOBS, he was my grand father’s brother, the song was written for their band which was Alexandra’s Rag Time Band, they where born in London and the band was formed there before 1911, Irving Berlin bought the music from Jack Jacobs with all rights to the song and music in 1911. > > Jack Jacobs was a verteose violin player and in later years travelled to New York to play for Joscha Heifetz and another famous Hungarian violinist, he stayed at the Knicket Brocker Hotel whenever he went to America. > > These are true facts facts that never where made public. Just went and looked up _Alexander’s Ragtime Band_ on the ASCAP website. [https://www.ascap.com/Home/ace-title-search/index.aspx](https://www.ascap.com/Home/ace-title-search/index.aspx) I can’t reproduce the results in this page but if you go to the above link and put in _Alexander’s Ragtime Band_ ASCAP will tell you the writer is Irving Berlin. Nowhere is “Jack Jacobs” listed. ASCAP licenses the song so I would think they have some say in this. Not listed here either. [Ben and Brad - In the Media - 'Alexander's Ragtime Band' at One Hundred](http://www.benandbrad.com/alexander.html) Now, is it possible that Irving Berlin purchased this song from someone else? I guess so. But we need more than just your say so, my honey lamb. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/9 "2012-11-29T05:41:49Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > Didn’t we have some poster a few years ago say the same thing about Glen Miller? [Found it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523980) > [@](#): > > Mr. Miller and his bandmates (my dad included) were in a club, and a french couple was doing the tango, and the woman kept landing in Glenn Millers lap, and flirting with him, and when Mr. Miller and his bandmates got up to leave, this french dancer followed them out and stabbed Glenn Miller ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/10 "2012-11-29T06:04:01Z")
There’s a CERTAIN SIMILSRTY of style, too. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/11 "2012-12-04T00:05:48Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > Just went and looked up _Alexander’s Ragtime Band_ on the ASCAP website. Well there’s your problem. The OP clearly said “Alexandra’s Rag Time Band”. Alex’s sister, perhaps. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/12 "2012-12-04T00:44:36Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Well there’s your problem. The OP clearly said “Alexandra’s Rag Time Band”. Alex’s sister, perhaps. Post #3. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/13 "2012-12-04T02:07:30Z")
Folks, **Chocolateart** has left the building. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/14 "2012-12-08T16:39:24Z")
Perhaps because Dopers seemed to **Seethru** her Art? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MacLir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@MacLir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacLir)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/15 "2015-12-02T14:39:18Z")
Not to revive a zombie thread, but it should be noted in reference to Berlin’s preference for the black keys that the pentatonic scale represented by the black keys is easier to compose in. This is due to the fact that two adjacent notes in the pentatonic scale are an auditorily pleasant interval, but are not in the diatonic (white keys) scale, or the chromatic (whole keyboard) scale. In fact, you can play nearly random black keys and still have it sound like some sort of music. 😉 It also turns out that much “oriental” and “cowboy” music is based on the pentatonic scale. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/16 "2015-12-02T15:30:39Z")
I’m glad you revived this zombie. In searching Cecil’s claim: > [@](#): > > He played almost entirely in the key of F-sharp, allowing him to stay on the black keys as much as possible. This wasn’t unheard-of for a self-taught musician, since it’s easier for untrained fingers to play the black keys (which are elevated and widely spaced) without hitting wrong notes. In a 1962 interview, Berlin said, “The black keys are right there, under your fingers. The key of C is for people who study music.” This claim is in Wikipedia, but the reference is back to Cecil’s column. If it’s anywhere else, non-self referential, it’s hard to find. Personally, as a pianist, I find Cecil’s – or Irving’s – claim that it’s easier to hit the black keys without hitting wrong notes as nonsensical. The black keys are narrower, and harder to hit just right. And unless you limit your tune to the pentatonic scale, which Berlin did not do, you can only play one scale triad entirely on the black keys (F# major); all other triads require use of the white keys. In contrast, a diatonic composition on the white keys does not require the use of any black keys at all for the scale triads. > [@MacLir](#): > > …two adjacent notes in the pentatonic scale are an auditorily pleasant interval, but are not in the diatonic (white keys) scale, or the chromatic (whole keyboard) scale. What? Two adjacent notes are not in the white keys scale? What are you talking about? Besides, the pentatonic scale can be played starting at any key on the keyboard, not just the black keys. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/17 "2015-12-02T16:57:54Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I’m glad you revived this zombie. In searching Cecil’s claim:This claim is in Wikipedia, but the reference is back to Cecil’s column. If it’s anywhere else, non-self referential, it’s hard to find. Not hard to find. The [American Legends](http://www.americanlegends.com/musicians/irving_berlin.html) site makes the same claim, and that seems pretty well researched. > [@](#): > > Although he earned a royalty on his lyrics, Berlin realized he could double the take if he also composed the music. Here he was handicapped since he could only play the black keys on his piano as they were easier to manipulate. Many other sites say the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/18 "2015-12-02T17:38:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > What? Two adjacent notes are not in the white keys scale? What are you talking about? Besides, the pentatonic scale can be played starting at any key on the keyboard, not just the black keys. He’s saying that the intervals of the pentatonic scale are such that playing adjacent notes in this scale (two or three semitones/seconds or minor thirds) have a more pleasingly harmonious sound than playing adjacent notes in the diatonic scale (one or two semitones/diminished seconds or seconds) or chromatic scale (semitones/diminished seconds). Thus, any random note pairing in the pentatonic scale is going to have a high degree of harmony with each other. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/19 "2015-12-03T04:05:56Z")
Casting aside all questions of apparent likelihood, it is a pragmatic fact that self-taught musicians often play in extreme flat keys, _i.e.,_ mostly on the black keys. Noël Coward is another example. (He, too, wrote lyrics. And wrote plays. And composed full-on operettas. And wrote movies. And acted. And had a night-club act. And painted.) ---
**Author:** ![eastcheap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@eastcheap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eastcheap)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/irving-berlin/641221/20 "2015-12-04T01:24:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Many other sites say the same thing. I’ve also read that the black key thing was a popular “teach yourself piano in six easy lessons” sort of technique at the time Berlin was learning to play. > [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Noël Coward is another example. (He, too, wrote lyrics. And wrote plays. And composed full-on operettas. And wrote movies. And acted. And had a night-club act. And painted.) And he made Hitler’s hit-list. None too shabby.