# Is $18,400/year (for 4) a fair or realistic "poverty line"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724 "2006-07-09T12:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/1 "2006-07-09T12:56:18Z")
I think official figures on poverty in America might be grossly underestimated. The Department of Health and Human Services [url=]Poverty Guidelines put the poverty line at $18,400 a year for a family of four. Is that anywhere close to realistic? As a bottom-of-the-career-ladder public librarian, I make about three times that. I live alone, by no means extravagantly, in a small town with a relatively low cost of living. And I live from paycheck to paycheck. (In fact, I might have to start moonlighting soon to make ends meet.) If my income went down to, say, $17,960 **(twice** the official poverty line for an individual), I guess I’d have to move into a storage unit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/2 "2006-07-09T12:58:29Z")
Misstated: I make a bit more than **twice** the poverty line for a family of four. (Wishful thinking sometimes gets in the way of math . . .) Point still holds, though. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/3 "2006-07-09T13:11:04Z")
If you’re barely making ends meet as a single person at roughly $36,800 a year then you’re living beyond your means. In my early 20’s I was living in Dallas, Texas making a little over $20,000 a year and doing just fine. I made enough to feed, clothe, own a car, and keep a decent roof over my head and although I didn’t usually have a whole lot of money for vacation I did manage to swing a trip to Orlando, Florida. Of course almost all my furniture was old stuff I swiped from my parents so it isn’t as if I went it totatally alone. I don’t know how a single person could make $36,800 a year and barely get by unless you’ve got a large expense such as housing or medical bills. Then again maybe the lifestyle I accepted when I was 20 isn’t something I’d find acceptable in my 40’s. Is $18,400 an acceptable poverty line for a family of four? (Your link didn’t work for me by the way.) I suspect it would depend on where you live exactly. Assigning any number is somewhat arbitrary as I’m sure life wouldn’t be significntly improved at $19,000 or $20,000 a year. Marc ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/4 "2006-07-09T13:14:16Z")
[Fixed link.](http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/03poverty.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/5 "2006-07-09T13:33:03Z")
My brother lives alone and works two crappy part time jobs, and he only eats once a day to make ends meet. I think he probably makes around $20K-$23K/year. $18K for four people is extremely unrealistic. You need subsidies to live a healthy lifestyle (in my opinion). Less than $5K/person? I don’t think so. Your rent, figured at the “1/4 of your income” amount, would be $375/mo. I don’t even know of a shitty apartment that would go for that cheap. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/6 "2006-07-09T13:34:08Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I don’t know how a single person could make $36,800 a year and barely get by unless you’ve got a large expense such as housing or medical bills. My rent is $650/month for a one-bedroom apartment. I have a lot of debts (it took me more than a year to find a full-time library job after I got my master’s degree), and I have asthma and some other problems, and my health insurance\* and the prescription medicine costs are a killer. The latter should improve after my job’s health insurance kicks in next month, but how many poor people have jobs with that kind of benefit? (Many do qualify for Medicaid, but I’m simply assuming that the official poverty line is based on counting the value of all forms of public assistance as income; the HHS page doesn’t make that clear, but it’s hard to see how it could be otherwise.) \*BTW, my health insurance premium almost doubled when I moved from Hillsborough County to Miami-Dade. Blue Cross says that’s all determined by the state Department of Insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/7 "2006-07-09T14:34:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My rent is $650/month for a one-bedroom apartment. There ya go then. 18k here would be poverty here. Since you live in Florida, and your rent is twice what a decent apartment costs here, I will assume that cost of living is around twice what it is here. The math comes out exactly the same. You make twice the amount but pay twice the rent. FWIW, my last three homes were, 3 bedroom apartment: $315 (lived alone), 4 bedroom apartment (3 other roommates): my share- $255 (Campus style living- rent by the room, if somebody moved out your rent didn’t go up- full amentities, Pool, fitness center, pool hall, computer centre, volleyball, tennis and basketball courts, etc), and my current is a home, I pay 300 a month but have two other roommates. It is a 5 bedroom, 2 bathroom, 2 car garage home in a fabulous neigborhood. Rent around here for lower end homes (I go for mid), runs 225 for a cheap place, or 500 or a 3 bedroom duplex (total rent, not split). Upper runs around 400-450 for some of the very elite apartment complexes. Of course a very nice home runs from 120k to 389k for land and a 5 bed house. I wouldn’t want to even live on 34k here though, so take that as you would (I do, but I am a student…). The thing I don’t like about cost of living figures is that for a cost of living to be twice something, more than rent would have to cost twice as much. You may pay twice the rent I do, but a loaf of bread doesn’t cost you $8 (3.99 for Sara Lee), Milk doesn’t cost you $7, and gas probably doesn’t cost you twice the $2.89 it is here. (probably like $3.15 tops) I don’t see how it would be possible to live on 18k with a family of four. 1500 a month before taxes. Probably 1150 after taxes. So assuming here you could find a 3 bedroom duplex- 500 a month. 650 left for food (200 if shop frugal), Car insurance (say: 50 if liability), 100 for utilities if heat is low and air, if used is like at 79). 30 for basic phone, 150 for gasoline. That leaves 200 hundred for things like school supplies, clothes, savings, basic cable or any other luxaries or things I am forgetting. If rent is like 800 or more, you definately have to live more frugal. I don’t see how they do it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/8 "2006-07-09T14:39:52Z")
**BrainGlutton** I don’t think it’s fair to include such things as past debts and excessive medical expenses without adjusting your income (or the poverity line) to compensate. Also the idea of poverty is sort of lost in the US, to me real poverty means no cable (or sat) TV, no internet, no car, no name brand clothes, no luxury foods, perhaps basic phone service, low electric bills (very limited a/c if at all), no new television - just the ones that you had before you fell below the poverty line of TV’s gifted to you. Now if you need something (like a cellphone) to keep the low wage job you do have, then that would be OK. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/9 "2006-07-09T14:41:45Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Since you live in Florida, and your rent is twice what a decent apartment costs here, I will assume that cost of living is around twice what it is here. Overall, no, not for food and gas, etc. I would expect to pay exactly the same for most things in Missouri as in Florida. My rent might be on the high side because rental property is so hard to find in Homestead. (Believe it or not, this town still hasn’t entirely recovered from Hurricane Andrew in '92.) In St. Petersburg, I was able to rent an efficiency apartment for $250/month. In Homestead, I can’t even **find** an efficiency. But I’d rather pay what I’m paying than find an efficiency in Miami and commute! Imagine what the gas would cost! ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/10 "2006-07-09T15:13:35Z")
People living in SoCal making that low a wage are in serious trouble. 20 years ago, I was able to find a one bedroom apartment in Orange right next to the railroad tracks for $515/month- no way you find that now. People making the state minimum wage ($6.75 here) are stuggling to _survive_. Less than $20,000 for a family of four? Damn near impossible, at least where I live. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/11 "2006-07-09T15:14:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Overall, no, not for food and gas, etc. I would expect to pay exactly the same for most things in Missouri as in Florida. My rent might be on the high side because rental property is so hard to find in Homestead. (Believe it or not, this town still hasn’t entirely recovered from Hurricane Andrew in '92.) In St. Petersburg, I was able to rent an efficiency apartment for $250/month. In Homestead, I can’t even **find** an efficiency. But I’d rather pay what I’m paying than find an efficiency in Miami and commute! Imagine what the gas would cost! Gas could not possibly cost you $400 per month, but as long as you like where you are living, by all means, pay for the short commute. It is all about location. Poverty level does not allow for medical insurance other than state/federal aide. It will include food stamps. All that said I could not conceive of a family of four making a go of it in one of the more expensive states. That figure is only barely realistic for the poorest states. It would be a rare find to get even a one-bedroom apartment in NJ or NY for $650 per month. A two bedroom starts at around $1000 for most of this area. Forget about owning a car and having it insured (NJ requirement), forget about health insurance (at least $6000 per year, probably more). So if you found a 2 bedroom apartment for $12000 per year, after food and clothing you would still require a lot of charity and food stamps to keep from being homeless. If a medical emergency occurs, you will get minimal charity care via the local Emergency room. None of this allows for much money left for phone, electric or most importantly heating. So you actually would need to find a 1-bedroom apartment that included heat. Could some families pull this off? I guess so but it would be a lot simpler in the south where heating is a minor issue and rents are much lower. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/12 "2006-07-09T15:20:30Z")
For instance, I chose Santa Ana, CA for an internet search of rental apartments. Santa Ana has both nice areas and severely depressed barrios. The range for apartments (studio - 2 bedroom) was $772-$1700. The cheapest 2 bedroom I found was $984 per month for a 910 sf 2 bedroom apt, in a not-that-nice area. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/13 "2006-07-09T15:25:40Z")
The American poverty line is pretty good. It is calculated based on the Agriculture Department’s estimate of food costs for a family of four and then multiplied by 4(?), on the theory that food takes up 20% (?) of a family’s expenses. Where this goes haywire is in high real estate market areas. Why is this system good? Well because it is constantly recalculated. In other countries (no cite) the poverty line is set and more or less never moved. The American one rises and falls based on the cost of a basket of food. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/14 "2006-07-09T15:30:29Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] **BrainGlutton** I don’t think it’s fair to include such things as past debts and excessive medical expenses without adjusting your income (or the poverity line) to compensate. Well, in any case, it’s not about **me.** I only used my own income as a rough-and-ready benchmark. I know I’m not poor. I know a person could make considerably less than I and still not be poor. But **how much** less? Where does it make sense to draw the line? That’s an important question to answer, if only for the sake of forming an accurate picture of the incidence of poverty in America, and comparing it to that of, say, Europe. An issue that often comes up in this forum, but how can we discuss it meaningfully unless we’re sure that figures cited for Europe and America are based on the same definitions of “poverty” and that both definitions are reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/15 "2006-07-09T15:55:55Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > The American poverty line is pretty good. It is calculated based on the Agriculture Department’s estimate of food costs for a family of four and then multiplied by 4(?), on the theory that food takes up 20% (?) of a family’s expenses. > > Where this goes haywire is in high real estate market areas. > > Why is this system good? > > Well because it is constantly recalculated. In other countries (no cite) the poverty line is set and more or less never moved. The American one rises and falls based on the cost of a basket of food. That’s not entirely accurate. Many, if not most, European countries use a relative poverty threshold, meaning that a person is considered poor if they make less than, say, 30% of the median income. In the United States, the measure used to be, basically, “the cost of the absolute minimum amount of the cheapest food you can buy and still survive, times three.” It’s now tied to the CPI, which _excludes_ gas and food. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/16 "2006-07-09T16:01:34Z")
Here’s a decent illustration of the effect of a relative vs. an absolute measure: > [@](#): > > Another way of looking at poverty is in relative terms. “Relative poverty” can be defined as having significantly less access to income and wealth than other members of society. In 1999, the income of a family at the poverty line was $17,020. This was 28.49% of the median income in the U.S. In 1959 a family at the poverty line had an income that was 42.64% of the median income. Thus a poor family in 1999 had relatively less income and therefore considerable less purchasing power than a poor family in 1959. > **[Poverty in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_line_in_the_United_States#Relative_measures_of_poverty)** > > In the United States, poverty has both social and political implications. In 2020, there were 37.2 million people in poverty. Some of the many causes include income inequality,\[needs update\] inflation, unemployment, debt traps and poor education.\[needs update\] The majority of adults living in poverty are employed and have at least a high school education. Although the US is a relatively wealthy country by international standards, it has a persistently high poverty rate compared to Efforts ... ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/17 "2006-07-09T16:25:40Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > Gas could not possibly cost you $400 per month, but as long as you like where you are living, by all means, pay for the short commute. > > It is all about location. Poverty level does not allow for medical insurance other than state/federal aide. It will include food stamps. All that said I could not conceive of a family of four making a go of it in one of the more expensive states. That figure is only barely realistic for the poorest states. It would be a rare find to get even a one-bedroom apartment in NJ or NY for $650 per month. A two bedroom starts at around $1000 for most of this area. Forget about owning a car and having it insured (NJ requirement), forget about health insurance (at least $6000 per year, probably more). So if you found a 2 bedroom apartment for $12000 per year, after food and clothing you would still require a lot of charity and food stamps to keep from being homeless. If a medical emergency occurs, you will get minimal charity care via the local Emergency room. None of this allows for much money left for phone, electric or most importantly heating. So you actually would need to find a 1-bedroom apartment that included heat. > Could some families pull this off? I guess so but it would be a lot simpler in the south where heating is a minor issue and rents are much lower. > > Jim When I lived in Newark, I paid $500 in rent for a run-down 1-bedroom apt in a run-down highrise. Utilities were included, thank goodness. But if you wanted a guaranteed parking spot (which is not a trivial matter at all), you had to fork out $600 a year. There were people who couldn’t afford this who would stress out every evening trying to hunt down a legal parking spot (and then have to wake up really early on Monday mornings when street parking isn’t allowed). On the $12,000 I lived on during my first year up there, I certainly felt poor and I was all by myself. But I didn’t even qualify for food stamps. **BrainGlutton** , consider yourself lucky. Homestead is el-cheapo compared to Miami. I’m paying close to a $1000 in rent. I’d rather live back in northern Jersey, where at least you can get the benefits of living close to Manhattan. What am I paying for now? Living in Hurricane Alley? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/18 "2006-07-09T17:31:06Z")
> [@black rabbit](#): > > [Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_line_in_the_United_States#Relative_measures_of_poverty) From the same article (it’s “copyleft” material, mods!): > [@](#): > > **Concerns regarding accuracy** > > In recent years, there have been a number of concerns raised about the official U.S. poverty measure. In 1995, the National Research Council’s Committee on National Statistics convened a panel on measuring poverty. The findings of the panel were that “the official poverty measure in the United States is flawed and does not adequately inform policy-makers or the public about who is poor and who is not poor.” > > The panel was chaired by Robert Michael, former Dean of the Harris School of the University of Chicago. According to Michael, the official U.S. poverty measure “has not kept pace with far-reaching changes in society and the economy.” The panel proposed a model based on disposable income: > > > [@](#): > > > > _According to the panel’s recommended measure, income would include, in addition to money received, the value of non-cash benefits such as food stamps, school lunches and public housing that can be used to satisfy basic needs. The new measure also would subtract from gross income certain expenses that cannot be used for these basic needs, such as income taxes, child-support payments, medical costs, health-insurance premiums and work-related expenses, including child care._ > > **Understating poverty** > > Many sociologists and government officials have agreed that poverty in the United States is understated, meaning that there are more housholds living in actual poverty than there are households below the poverty threshold.[6] A recent NPR report states that as much as 30% of Americans have trouble making ends meet and other advocates have made supporting claims that the rate of actual poverty in the US is far higher than that created by the means of the poverty threshold.[6] The issue of understating poverty is especially pressing in states with both a high cost of living and a high poverty rate such as California where the median home price in May 2006 was determined to be $564,430.[7] With half of all homes being priced above the half million dollar mark and prices in urban areas such as San Francisco, San Jose or Los Angeles being yet higher than state average it is almost impossible for not just the poor but also lower middle class worker to afford decent housing, not mentioning the possibility of home ownership. In the Monterey area, where the low-pay industry of agriculture is the largest sector in the economy and the majority of the population lacks a college education the median home price was determined to be $723,790, requiring an upper middle class income which only roughly 20% of all households in the county boast.[7][8] Such fluctuations in local markets are however not considered in the Federal poverty threshold and thus leave many who life in poverty-like conditions out of the total number of households classified as poor. > **Overstating poverty** > > Yet other advocates claim that poverty in the United States is overstated. > > While some state that poor households today enjoy many items which were luxuries, fifty years ago, and every item was a luxury upon its introduction to the public. Furthermore, critics point out that while some of these items are not necessities they are much easier to produce today than fifty years ago, making them inexpensive. In the 1950s, a microwave cost more than two years of low-income rent; today one can be had for a fraction of one month’s rent. Furthermore, present conditions are compared to an arbitrary time period (fifty years ago). If one chooses an earlier period – say, a hundred years ago – many more items would become luxuries or nonexistent (i.e. refrigerators, electric lights, gas ranges, etc.). > > There is also criticism that poverty measures do not count income other than cash income, which includes many welfare benefits. For instance, if food stamps and public housing were successfully raising poor people’s standard of living to, the poverty line figures would not change since they do not count transfers from food stamps and public housing as a form of income.[citation needed] Others point out that even if these benefits were are taken into account, those stricken by poverty would still fall far behind the middle classes. > > A 1993 study of low income single mothers titled Making Ends Meet, by Kathryn Edin, a sociologist at the University of Pennsylvania, showed that the mothers had to spend more than their reported incomes. According to Edin, they made up the difference through contributions from family members, absent boyfriends, off-the-books jobs and church charity. > > According to Edin: “No one avoided the unnecessary expenditures, such as the occasional trip to the Dairy Queen, or a pair of stylish new sneakers for the son who might otherwise sell drugs to get them, or the cable subscription for the kids home alone and you are afraid they will be out on the street if they are not watching TV.” [9] ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/19 "2006-07-09T18:22:32Z")
People argue both sides of the issue because A) the discussion is often a political debate, with one side trying to ‘prove’ their case to affect policy, B) There’s no firm understanding of what ‘poverty’ is, so it’s easy to re-define it to fit your argument. There are lots of ways to look at it. For example, the poverty line in the U.S. is about TWICE the world average income, and about 20 times higher than the average income in the 3rd world. People living in ‘poverty’ in the U.S. often have larger homes or apartments than average citizens in many countries, air conditiong, television, video games, computers, either a car or access to good quality public transit, free education, and access to health care under Medicaid. What it really comes down to is what you believe should be a minimum lifestyle for someone in poverty. There’s no question that a family of four can survive on $18,000 per year (survival being defined as, “Not dying of starvation”). So what we’re arguing about is how good a standard of living must be before someone is no longer considered to be impoverished. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/20 "2006-07-09T18:23:45Z")
BTW, **Sam,** how is “poverty” officially defined in Canada? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724.md?page=2)