# Is $18,400/year (for 4) a fair or realistic "poverty line"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724 "2006-07-09T12:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/41 "2006-07-10T22:12:40Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] The question is not whether it’s possible to raise a family on $18,000. The question is why would you plan to do it? [/QUOTE] People who find themselves raising kids on $18,000 aren’t really into planning, that’s the thing. Or they _were_ planning, and then life dealt them a low blow like lay-offs and sickness and injury. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/42 "2006-07-10T22:47:42Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] People who find themselves raising kids on $18,000 aren’t really into planning, that’s the thing. Or they _were_ planning, and then life dealt them a low blow like lay-offs and sickness and injury. [/QUOTE] The first scenario is self-fulfilling and goes withoug comment. As for the second, I was just laid off and I still have medical bills coming in so I have some idea of what it’s like. Not sure what other states do but I can draw unemployment while working a lesser job, which will deliver a wage higher than $18,000 year. That number goes up with the # of children. There is also money available for retraining. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/43 "2006-07-10T23:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Where this goes haywire is in high real estate market areas. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Magiver] I’ll use your example and compare it to mine. Starting with your rent of $650 month. That would be the payment for a house that cost $88,000 (30 years at 8%). If you bought a house when interest rates were 6% then you could have borrowed $108,414. That rate is probably still available through first-time home owners rates from the government. The usual reason people rent instead of buy is a lack of down payment. I worked part time to pay my way through school ($19,000/yr). At that income I could afford a used mobile home($5,000). I financed it like it was a used car so the payments were $110/month. My first house cost $44,000. I put 10% down and mortgage payments were $316 (30 year 8.8%). I doubled the payments each month and paid it off in 5 years. DONE (Repeat as necessary until you are in the house you want). [/quote] Well, like **Paul** said, things go insane in high real estate markets like mine. Average home price in the nine county SF Bay Area region with its population of five million+, is now $664,000. The ~1,000 sq. ft. starter home ( albeit with brand new roof and windows ) across the street from me in what is a decent but unspectacular neighborhood, two blocks from BART ( subway ) tracks and with one neighbor a noisy church hall, was asking $499k this month. That’s a STARTER home. A 750 sq. ft. condo is a mediocre neighborhood will go for $400k. My fairly reasonable rent for a two bedroom flat was $1450.00 a month ( I just bought a place myself - probably at the utter peak of the market 😃 ). You generally can’t get a subsidized first time home buyer program here - the basic starter homes are more expensive than any of the federal programs allow. And you’re not going to save a 20% down payment on a $400k place anytime soon feeding a family on 18k ;). Good luck even coming up with 5%. Nope, 18k might work as a standard in many parts of the country. But not here. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/44 "2006-07-10T23:57:36Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] Well, like **Paul** said, things go insane in high real estate markets like mine. Average home price in the nine county SF Bay Area region with its population of five million+, is now $664,000. The ~1,000 sq. ft. starter home ( albeit with brand new roof and windows ) across the street from me in what is a decent but unspectacular neighborhood, two blocks from BART ( subway ) tracks and with one neighbor a noisy church hall, was asking $499k this month. That’s a STARTER home. A 750 sq. ft. condo is a mediocre neighborhood will go for $400k. My fairly reasonable rent for a two bedroom flat was $1450.00 a month ( I just bought a place myself - probably at the utter peak of the market 😃 ). You generally can’t get a subsidized first time home buyer program here - the basic starter homes are more expensive than any of the federal programs allow. And you’re not going to save a 20% down payment on a $400k place anytime soon feeding a family on 18k ;). Good luck even coming up with 5%. Nope, 18k might work as a standard in many parts of the country. But not here. - Tamerlane [/QUOTE] Not to be insulting but nobody with an ounce of housing sense would move to SFO, OAK, SJC, or any of the other Bay-area sinkhole without a wallet full of money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/45 "2006-07-11T00:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] People who find themselves raising kids on $18,000 aren’t really into planning, that’s the thing. Or they _were_ planning, and then life dealt them a low blow like lay-offs and sickness and injury. [/QUOTE] Or unplanned pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/46 "2006-07-11T00:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Or unplanned pregnancy. [/QUOTE] I mean, there’s planning and then there’s planning. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/47 "2006-07-11T00:47:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I mean, there’s planning and then there’s planning. [/QUOTE] yah but you only get one “doh” and the rest are pure stupidity. Granted I was probably more careful during my salad days (than most people) I understand nothing is foolproof. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/48 "2006-07-11T01:09:48Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Not to be insulting but nobody with an ounce of housing sense would move to SFO, OAK, SJC, or any of the other Bay-area sinkhole without a wallet full of money. [/QUOTE] Well, it is a rather pleasant sinkhole :). But that’s beside the point. Not every poor person here moved from less expensive places chock full o’ opportunity they spurned. And really it’s academic how the poor got here or why they’re poor. It’s just a fact that there are poor people everywhere and all we’re talking about are raw numbers and definitions of poverty. And it’s just a fact that 18k in NYC or San Francisco doesn’t go anywhere near as far as, say, Houston. That’s all. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/49 "2006-07-11T01:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] Well, like **Paul** said, things go insane in high real estate markets like mine. Average home price in the nine county SF Bay Area region with its population of five million+, is now $664,000. The ~1,000 sq. ft. starter home ( albeit with brand new roof and windows ) across the street from me in what is a decent but unspectacular neighborhood, two blocks from BART ( subway ) tracks and with one neighbor a noisy church hall, was asking $499k this month. That’s a STARTER home. A 750 sq. ft. condo is a mediocre neighborhood will go for $400k. My fairly reasonable rent for a two bedroom flat was $1450.00 a month ( I just bought a place myself - probably at the utter peak of the market 😃 ). You generally can’t get a subsidized first time home buyer program here - the basic starter homes are more expensive than any of the federal programs allow. And you’re not going to save a 20% down payment on a $400k place anytime soon feeding a family on 18k ;). Good luck even coming up with 5%. Nope, 18k might work as a standard in many parts of the country. But not here. - Tamerlane [/QUOTE] Part of ‘being willing to do the hard things to be successful’ is the willingness to pack up and relocate when you find yourself in an area you can’t afford, or which doesn’t have suitable jobs. I packed up and left my home town when I was 22, because I realized that there were no real opportunities for me there. It was terrifying, because I hadn’t been to too many other places, and had only passed through big cities before, and had no friends where I was going. But I did it, because I felt it was the right choice. A friend who stayed behind found himself working in mediocre jobs he didn’t really want because the really good jobs were elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/50 "2006-07-11T01:23:40Z")
Yeah, **Sam** , but again this thread ( or at least my participation in it ) isn’t about how you should be able to pull yourself up out of poverty if you just have the right Protestant work ethic and an ounce of sense ;). I’m just talking definitions here. Question: Is below 18k for a family of four a reasonable definition of poverty in the USA? Answer: In some places, probably. In my area, I’d argue no, it’s somewhere north off that number. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/51 "2006-07-11T01:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] Well, it is a rather pleasant sinkhole :). But that’s beside the point. Not every poor person here moved from less expensive places chock full o’ opportunity they spurned. And really it’s academic how the poor got here or why they’re poor. It’s just a fact that there are poor people everywhere and all we’re talking about are raw numbers and definitions of poverty. And it’s just a fact that 18k in NYC or San Francisco doesn’t go anywhere near as far as, say, Houston. That’s all. - Tamerlane [/QUOTE] Since I always manage to drive through the crap side of major cities I’ll have to take your word for it about SFO. Anyone living there on $18K would certainly be below the poverty line. No question. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/52 "2006-07-11T07:33:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [Fixed link.](http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/03poverty.htm) [/QUOTE] [Here](http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/06poverty.shtml) are the 2006 numbers. The amount for a family of 4 has been increased to $20,000. As the poverty guidelines are used to establish eligibility for certain governmental aid programs, it seems likely to me that the $20,000 is the total income before any financial assistance is taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/53 "2006-07-11T16:30:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That makes sense for the purposes of the agencies providing those services. Nevertheless, my respect for Canada’s government dropped half a notch. You mean there’s no general measurement even for statistical purposes? [/QUOTE] There is one for statistical purposes, the Low-Income Cut Off (LICO). You might be interested in [this](http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/13F0027XIE/13F0027XIE.htm) article from Statistics Canada, which discusses exactly what we’re talking about here. > [@Statistics Canada](#): > > The underlying difficulty is due to the fact that poverty is intrinsically a question of social consensus, at a given point in time and in the context of a given country. Someone acceptably well off in terms of the standards in a developing country might well be considered desperately poor in Canada. And even within the same country, the outlook changes over time. A standard of living considered as acceptable in the previous century might well be viewed with abhorrence today. > > It is through the political process that democratic societies achieve social consensus in domains that are intrinsically judgmental. The exercise of such value judgements is certainly not the proper role of Canada’s national statistical agency which prides itself on its objectivity, and whose credibility depends on the exercise of that objectivity. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/54 "2006-07-11T16:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=black rabbit] That’s not entirely accurate. Many, if not most, European countries use a relative poverty threshold, meaning that a person is considered poor if they make less than, say, 30% of the median income. [/QUOTE] The US does the same, but it mainly applies to affordable and subsidized housing. I housing programs and among housing professionals, you’ll seldom hear the word “poverty” used, but you will hear terms like “low income” (usually 50%-80% of area median), “very low income” (usually 30%-50% below area median) and “extremely low income” (usuallly \<30% of area median). Here in Cleveland, the very low cost of housing creates much different problems than the high cost of housing in California or other booming areas. Around here, people of modest means can actually afford to buy nice houses. However, one of two things happens: their presence cause middle inome residents to flee the area, and thus the buyers lose equity; or they get suckered by a predatory lender, with foreclosure often the result. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/55 "2006-07-11T17:53:58Z")
[QUOTE=cowgirl] There is one for statistical purposes, the Low-Income Cut Off (LICO). You might be interested in [this](http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/13F0027XIE/13F0027XIE.htm) article from Statistics Canada, which discusses exactly what we’re talking about here. [/QUOTE] Very interesting. If I am understanding it correctly, they are saying that the definition of “poverty” is inherently political and thus any attempt to collect “statistics” based on such a definition cannot be done objectively, as there can never be an objective standard of what constitutes “poverty”. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/56 "2006-07-11T20:38:04Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] For example, let’s look at some numbers for Edmonton, from 1997: Annual costs for a family of four: Apartment (3 bedroom average): $7116 Food: $5865 Public Transportation: $898 Heath care (non covered): $580 Personal Care: $456.98 Furniture and sundries: $298 Telephone: $296 Household insurance: $221 Cleaning Supplies: $159 Laundry: $81 [/QUOTE] I’m not sure using 10 year old statistics from a depressed economy is a good indicator of poverty rate today. In my area: Apartment (2 bedrooms - lowest neighborhood in-city): [$8628](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/realestate/links/aptrents16.pdf) Food (600/month): $7200 Public Transportation (2 adult bus passes, for in-city buses, during non-peak hours): [$540](http://buypass.metrokc.gov/browse.cfm/2,55.html) Heath care: $1440 for insurance alone. If you use it, it goes up for co-pays and prescriptions. Personal Care: Unknown Furniture and sundries: Unknown Telephone: $420 Household insurance: $200 Cleaning Supplies: Unknown Laundry (2 loads/week at $2.50/load): $260 At this point - I’m at $18,688 - and there’s no light, heat, or water yet. (Much less cleaning supplies and personal items or sundries). ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/57 "2006-07-15T02:09:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Overall, no, not for food and gas, etc. I would expect to pay exactly the same for most things in Missouri as in Florida. My rent might be on the high side because rental property is so hard to find in Homestead. (Believe it or not, this town still hasn’t entirely recovered from Hurricane Andrew in '92.) In St. Petersburg, I was able to rent an efficiency apartment for $250/month. In Homestead, I can’t even **find** an efficiency. But I’d rather pay what I’m paying than find an efficiency in Miami and commute! Imagine what the gas would cost! [/QUOTE] I would just like to say that this is insane. I live in Northern California. When I lived alone, I paid 795 for a one bedroom apartment. That was considered _cheap_. And I pulled in a little under 30K a year. I considered myself far from poverty. Now, my SO and I live in a 2 bedroom apartment, where we pay 1,000 a month. It is still considered way cheap. I am putting myself through law school (with minimal help from relatives.) I pull in just over 30K a year. I still consider myself far from poverty. If you honestly believe you are living near the poverty level, I respectfully say that you’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![Blanche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Blanche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blanche)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/58 "2006-07-15T02:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I think official figures on poverty in America might be grossly underestimated. The Department of Health and Human Services [url=]Poverty Guidelines put the poverty line at $18,400 a year for a family of four. Is that anywhere close to realistic? As a bottom-of-the-career-ladder public librarian, I make about three times that. I live alone, by no means extravagantly, in a small town with a relatively low cost of living. And I live from paycheck to paycheck. (In fact, I might have to start moonlighting soon to make ends meet.) If my income went down to, say, $17,960 **(twice** the official poverty line for an individual), I guess I’d have to move into a storage unit. [/QUOTE] How much are your bills? I have a family of 5 and our household has never made close to that, our top income for a year being just under 30,000, and since my husband’s lay-off we’ve been living on quite a bit less. If you’re making 3 times $18.4K a year, that’s over $1000 a week. We get $440 a week, which is more like $370 after the various deductions. Our rent is $700 a month, bills another $300 in the summer, then there’s groceries and diapers. We get quite a bit of free groceries through WIC, but that’s the only assistance we get from the government. We still are able to get by, and get to go out for dinner or have other small treats every now and then. I can’t imagine why a single person would be living “paycheck to paycheck” on $1000 a WEEK. If we made that much we’d be saving almost half of it for college. ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724/59 "2006-07-18T13:24:12Z")
Does that include the social security from the parents? I’m not sure how much that is but it’s at least a few hundred a week, I think. Although caring for parents can be trying and expensive, thank god for SS. Their checks do count, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-18-400-year-for-4-a-fair-or-realistic-poverty-line/363724.md?page=2)