People who find themselves raising kids on $18,000 aren’t really into planning, that’s the thing.
Or they were planning, and then life dealt them a low blow like lay-offs and sickness and injury.
The first scenario is self-fulfilling and goes withoug comment. As for the second, I was just laid off and I still have medical bills coming in so I have some idea of what it’s like. Not sure what other states do but I can draw unemployment while working a lesser job, which will deliver a wage higher than $18,000 year. That number goes up with the # of children. There is also money available for retraining.
Well, like Paul said, things go insane in high real estate markets like mine. Average home price in the nine county SF Bay Area region with its population of five million+, is now $664,000. The ~1,000 sq. ft. starter home ( albeit with brand new roof and windows ) across the street from me in what is a decent but unspectacular neighborhood, two blocks from BART ( subway ) tracks and with one neighbor a noisy church hall, was asking $499k this month. That’s a STARTER home. A 750 sq. ft. condo is a mediocre neighborhood will go for $400k. My fairly reasonable rent for a two bedroom flat was $1450.00 a month ( I just bought a place myself - probably at the utter peak of the market 
).
You generally can’t get a subsidized first time home buyer program here - the basic starter homes are more expensive than any of the federal programs allow. And you’re not going to save a 20% down payment on a $400k place anytime soon feeding a family on 18k ;). Good luck even coming up with 5%.
Nope, 18k might work as a standard in many parts of the country. But not here.
- Tamerlane
Not to be insulting but nobody with an ounce of housing sense would move to SFO, OAK, SJC, or any of the other Bay-area sinkhole without a wallet full of money.
Or unplanned pregnancy.
I mean, there’s planning and then there’s planning.
yah but you only get one “doh” and the rest are pure stupidity. Granted I was probably more careful during my salad days (than most people) I understand nothing is foolproof.
Well, it is a rather pleasant sinkhole :).
But that’s beside the point. Not every poor person here moved from less expensive places chock full o’ opportunity they spurned. And really it’s academic how the poor got here or why they’re poor. It’s just a fact that there are poor people everywhere and all we’re talking about are raw numbers and definitions of poverty. And it’s just a fact that 18k in NYC or San Francisco doesn’t go anywhere near as far as, say, Houston. That’s all.
- Tamerlane
Part of ‘being willing to do the hard things to be successful’ is the willingness to pack up and relocate when you find yourself in an area you can’t afford, or which doesn’t have suitable jobs. I packed up and left my home town when I was 22, because I realized that there were no real opportunities for me there. It was terrifying, because I hadn’t been to too many other places, and had only passed through big cities before, and had no friends where I was going. But I did it, because I felt it was the right choice. A friend who stayed behind found himself working in mediocre jobs he didn’t really want because the really good jobs were elsewhere.
Yeah, Sam, but again this thread ( or at least my participation in it ) isn’t about how you should be able to pull yourself up out of poverty if you just have the right Protestant work ethic and an ounce of sense ;). I’m just talking definitions here.
Question: Is below 18k for a family of four a reasonable definition of poverty in the USA?
Answer: In some places, probably. In my area, I’d argue no, it’s somewhere north off that number.
- Tamerlane
Since I always manage to drive through the crap side of major cities I’ll have to take your word for it about SFO. Anyone living there on $18K would certainly be below the poverty line. No question.
Here are the 2006 numbers. The amount for a family of 4 has been increased to $20,000. As the poverty guidelines are used to establish eligibility for certain governmental aid programs, it seems likely to me that the $20,000 is the total income before any financial assistance is taken into account.
There is one for statistical purposes, the Low-Income Cut Off (LICO). You might be interested in this article from Statistics Canada, which discusses exactly what we’re talking about here.
The US does the same, but it mainly applies to affordable and subsidized housing. I housing programs and among housing professionals, you’ll seldom hear the word “poverty” used, but you will hear terms like “low income” (usually 50%-80% of area median), “very low income” (usually 30%-50% below area median) and “extremely low income” (usuallly <30% of area median).
Here in Cleveland, the very low cost of housing creates much different problems than the high cost of housing in California or other booming areas. Around here, people of modest means can actually afford to buy nice houses. However, one of two things happens: their presence cause middle inome residents to flee the area, and thus the buyers lose equity; or they get suckered by a predatory lender, with foreclosure often the result.
Very interesting. If I am understanding it correctly, they are saying that the definition of “poverty” is inherently political and thus any attempt to collect “statistics” based on such a definition cannot be done objectively, as there can never be an objective standard of what constitutes “poverty”.
I’m not sure using 10 year old statistics from a depressed economy is a good indicator of poverty rate today.
In my area:
Apartment (2 bedrooms - lowest neighborhood in-city): $8628
Food (600/month): $7200
Public Transportation (2 adult bus passes, for in-city buses, during non-peak hours): $540
Heath care: $1440 for insurance alone. If you use it, it goes up for co-pays and prescriptions.
Personal Care: Unknown
Furniture and sundries: Unknown
Telephone: $420
Household insurance: $200
Cleaning Supplies: Unknown
Laundry (2 loads/week at $2.50/load): $260
At this point - I’m at $18,688 - and there’s no light, heat, or water yet. (Much less cleaning supplies and personal items or sundries).
I would just like to say that this is insane. I live in Northern California. When I lived alone, I paid 795 for a one bedroom apartment. That was considered cheap. And I pulled in a little under 30K a year. I considered myself far from poverty.
Now, my SO and I live in a 2 bedroom apartment, where we pay 1,000 a month. It is still considered way cheap. I am putting myself through law school (with minimal help from relatives.) I pull in just over 30K a year. I still consider myself far from poverty.
If you honestly believe you are living near the poverty level, I respectfully say that you’re insane.
How much are your bills? I have a family of 5 and our household has never made close to that, our top income for a year being just under 30,000, and since my husband’s lay-off we’ve been living on quite a bit less. If you’re making 3 times $18.4K a year, that’s over $1000 a week. We get $440 a week, which is more like $370 after the various deductions. Our rent is $700 a month, bills another $300 in the summer, then there’s groceries and diapers. We get quite a bit of free groceries through WIC, but that’s the only assistance we get from the government. We still are able to get by, and get to go out for dinner or have other small treats every now and then.
I can’t imagine why a single person would be living “paycheck to paycheck” on $1000 a WEEK. If we made that much we’d be saving almost half of it for college.
Does that include the social security from the parents? I’m not sure how much that is but it’s at least a few hundred a week, I think. Although caring for parents can be trying and expensive, thank god for SS. Their checks do count, though.