# Is 1917 one giant plot hole? \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 28, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103 "2020-01-28T08:12:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/101 "2020-02-01T20:59:49Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > I believe this is covered by what I call “the John Ford Rule”. > > One of Ford’s first big successes was the movie _Stagecoach_ (WARNING: Spoilers for a 90+ year old movie!). Towards the end of the picture, there is a desperate chase of the stagecoach across the plains by Indians. When William S. Hart was asked his opinion of the movie, he pointed out that the Indians could have simply shot the horses and then picked off the passengers at their leisure. When the reporters took this critique to Ford, he had a simple reply as to why the Indians didn’t use this tactic: “it would have been the end of the picture”. > > In any (sufficiently entertaining) motion picture, if this is the answer to a question that begins “Why didn’t they just…”, then it is covered by the John Ford Rule and exempt from penalty. Well, you see, I have a better answer- the indians wanted the horses! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/102 "2020-02-01T21:03:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I haven’t seen the movie. The premise based on TV ads/coming attractions was so unbelievable that it turned me off completely. > > A couple of soldiers are sent by HQ on an urgent mission to prevent a few hundred (or however many) troops from being wiped out? Really? > > High Allied command had a long-established pattern of conducting and prolonging hopeless offensives in which tens of thousands of men died. They would hardly have cared about a much smaller number being sacrificed unnecessarily. Exactly my point. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/103 "2020-02-01T21:10:16Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Where and when was the British High Command shown in the film? The order came from the general played by Colin Firth. Sure. You know any of them that gave a rats ass over their losses? Especially as Haig seemed to think higher losses meant you were doing a better job? “Hmm, this will cost me 1600 men. Damme, Haig will get me the DSO for this.” The incompetence of WW1 british generals can not be over stated. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/104 "2020-02-01T22:23:27Z")
How come they won the war, then? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/105 "2020-02-01T22:33:27Z")
It’s fiction. I can come up with all sorts of plausible reasons why they might have sent those two soldiers on this mission, but I won’t because that’s not the point of the movie or any work of fiction at all. Homer was not an accurate account of ancient Greek warfare. Most legal dramas do not give accurate presentations of the legal profession. Same with spy movies, medical shows, and depictions of any profession. They are trying to tell compelling stories. If you want an accurate account of WW1, there are textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/106 "2020-02-01T22:38:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The incompetence of WW1 british generals can not be over stated. Are you seriously arguing that out of the 1500-odd British generals serving in WWI, _none_ of them would have been so competent as to risk a couple of lance corporals to save 1600 men? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/107 "2020-02-01T22:46:38Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > It’s fiction. I can come up with all sorts of plausible reasons why they might have sent those two soldiers on this mission, but I won’t because that’s not the point of the movie or any work of fiction at all. Homer was not an accurate account of ancient Greek warfare. Most legal dramas do not give accurate presentations of the legal profession. Same with spy movies, medical shows, and depictions of any profession. They are trying to tell compelling stories. This argument ignores the fact that most creators of historical fiction do, in fact, make a point of researching the settings and events they’re depicting. If the facts aren’t important, then why bother doing this? Historical accuracy must count for _something_. Stories need to have some baseline of credibility if they’re to engender engagement and emotional impact. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/108 "2020-02-01T22:58:06Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > This argument ignores the fact that most creators of historical fiction do, in fact, make a point of researching the settings and events they’re depicting. If the facts aren’t important, then why bother doing this? Historical accuracy must count for _something_. Stories need to have some baseline of credibility if they’re to engender engagement and emotional impact. It’s a line, and not a particularly bright one. I may have been overstating things. Yes, you do not want the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor, or Napoleon using machine guns, but you can sacrifice some detail for dramatic purposes. In this particular case, I think sending the two guys out on their mission was fine, regardless of the overall callousness of British high command. Maybe Colin Firth’s character was sick of all the sacrifice and tried to make a gesture to stop an assault even more pointless than most? Who knows? It seems a silly thing to get worked up about. I’ll admit I did think of the Eagles to Mordor thing in your OP when I saw the airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/109 "2020-02-01T23:08:11Z")
So some people on the board think the movie is unrealistic because British commanders wouldn’t have bothered sending two men to save a mere 1600 men, while others think it is unrealistic because the British commanders would never have relied on just two runners to deliver such an important message. Can I suggest that nobody here has any idea what is realistic or not in such a scenario? ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/110 "2020-02-01T23:43:57Z")
And we should be clear, that General Firth (sorry Colin but we’re never going to remember the name of any character you play) is not from ‘High Command’. He is clearly represented at the General officer commanding that particular sector of the front, so most likely a divisional commander. He is directly responsible for the safety of that force, and for tactical decision-making on that sector. Losing a regiment by letting them walk into an ambush at that stage in the war would not be acceptable. Assuming the producers did their historical research, and there is every sign that they went beyond extrapolating from old Blackadders, then they’d know Britain was having great difficulty getting fresh men any more. Losing troops was a vastly bigger concern than it may have been in 1915. The transition from trench warfare to a war of movement was still being worked out, and is actually shown very well in the film. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/111 "2020-02-02T01:49:05Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > BTW, another common way of sending a message like that in WWI was by pigeon. Sure, but that was by releasing the pigeon from the front to go back to its home. That wouldn’t work to send a message forward to troops in newly captured terrain. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/112 "2020-02-02T01:52:40Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The issue of the planes not being Firth’s to command had not occurred to me, though it admittedly makes a great deal of sense. True, but again, the planes are flying over that terrain and doing recon work, then communicating to the Army. There is obviously some degree of coordination. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/113 "2020-02-02T01:57:05Z")
> [@jk1245](#): > > I haven’t seen the movie yet, so maybe this is a dumb comment, but is it possible any airfield would be further for the runners to carry the message to than the nearby battalion? Based on the OP description the telegraph wires are cut so the group of soldiers that know about the trap would have to hand deliver The info wherever it ends up going. Weren’t airfields typically miles behind the trecnches? There were communication trenches stretching back from the front lines to areas away from the immediate combat. There were horses and vehicles in the back area. Sending a messenger _away_ from the fighting, towards vehicle transport, to get a message to the aerodrome, seems a logical approach, less risky for the success of the mission than sending two messengers into the war zone, knowing that there are enemy soldiers trying to surround the battalion and prevent communications. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/114 "2020-02-02T02:00:42Z")
> [@Jet\_Jaguar](#): > > Also, flying over the front was by no means safe, and I don’t recall reading about air-dropping messages very much at all. Remember that aviation was still in it’s infancy, and commanders didn’t really have a good idea of what to do with it. Aircraft were primarily used for reconnaissance, and the fighter plane’s priority were recon planes, both attacking the enemy’s and protecting your own. During the battle of Vimy Ridge in 1917, there was close coordination between the RFC and the Canadian Corps to relay information back from the front to let headquarters know how well the attack was progressing. Colour signals were used. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/115 "2020-02-02T07:13:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > … Sending a messenger _away_ from the fighting, towards vehicle transport, to get a message to the aerodrome, seems a logical approach, less risky for the success of the mission than sending two messengers into the war zone, knowing that there are enemy soldiers trying to surround the battalion and prevent communications. But that would not have helped at all. Colonel Cumberpatch was planning to do exactly what his standing orders were - to take the fight up to the Germans and keep the Hun on the run ['They don’t like it up ‘em, sir’ I’ve been reliably informed]. General Firth’s order was to tell them to NOT do what they thought they should be doing. A message sent from the front reading ‘Guess what we’re doing at sunrise …?’ would have been a Bad Thing. ---
**Author:** ![Steven\_Maven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steven_maven/32/3272_2.png) [@Steven\_Maven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_Maven)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/116 "2020-02-05T06:50:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If this was a realistic movie about WWI, they could have relayed the message to the battalion by shouting it. Even after a major advance, they would only be about fifty yards away. When the 2 soldiers are getting ready to leave for the mission, one says that they have to travel 9 miles. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/117 "2020-02-06T05:07:48Z")
> [@peccavi](#): > > Having milk didn’t bother me. As soon as he filled his canteen with milk I knew it was Chekov’s milk. But… > > The milk was fresh. Who milked the cow? Probably the civilians that the retreating Germans brutally massacred off-screen. Fair or not, that’s the kind of vibe I got from how the Germans were depicted in this film. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/118 "2020-02-06T07:25:21Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Probably the civilians that the retreating Germans brutally massacred off-screen. Fair or not, that’s the kind of vibe I got from how the Germans were depicted in this film. Why “the” civilians? We didn’t see any dead civilians near the farm, did we? ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/119 "2020-02-06T08:14:48Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > I’m pretty sure the Allied general who issues the order to the two soldiers says something to the effect of “Before retreating the Germans cut our lines”, implying this isn’t some field wire across no man’s land the advancing battalion laid out, but the actual field communications behind the Allied trench system. I’d have to watch again to be certain though. There are the exact words that General Erinmore uses to Blake and Schofield, from the script: > [@](#): > > The 2nd are due to attack the [Hindenburg] line shortly after dawn tomorrow. They have no idea what they are in for. **And we can’t warn them - _as a parting gift_, the enemy cut all our telephone lines.** My emphasis. This is a giant plot hole. As a _parting gift_, the enemy cut _all our_ lines. QED. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103/120 "2020-02-06T08:26:24Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > There are the exact words that General Erinmore uses to Blake and Schofield, from the script: Interesting. Where’d you get a copy of the script? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-1917-one-giant-plot-hole-spoilers/847103.md?page=7)