# Is 25 the new 21? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762 "2014-10-19T05:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/21 "2014-10-19T15:25:14Z")
> [@A\_Typical\_Moper](#): > > I’m 31, and I still live with my parents. It’s really tough out there. I don’t see how any young adult is able to support themselves these days unless they’re an investment banker or something. It makes sense for many young people to live with their parents. But except for a few places, it is not THAT tough for a person to live on their own or with a roommate. I mean, really, an investment banker? If that’s what you think you have to be to live on your own, you’ll never be free. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/22 "2014-10-19T15:29:05Z")
[quote=“Fuzzy\_Dunlop, post:17, topic:701762”] > [@](#): > > I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 30. From my perspective things have barely changed. I have a lot of friends in their 20s - some are very open about their finances. One of my closest friends is 26 and works part time as a pharmacy tech for around $11 / hour. She’s lived with 3 roommates on her own since she was 21 or 22. It’s not a great apartment but they’re perfectly happy. I’m 38, if you are only 30, I don’t think you would have experienced a really good job market; nothing like what I saw in the late 90’s. For example, the equivalent of eleven dollars an hour would have been a complete joke; $11 today would have been $7.70 in 1999 adjusting for inflation. You could make more than that working at McDonalds; heck, any completely unskilled no experience labor job would start at 10 an hour back then, in many cases with benefits. You have only experienced the new normal more or less, so the old normal is more of an unknown for you. And why on earth would it make more sense to spend more money to live with with 2 non family members than spend less money to live with your family? To me that only makes sense if you do not get along with your family. > [@](#): > > It might, but it might not. There are a lot of misconceptions about student loan debt. Overall student loan debt is up massively on a national level, but so is college enrollment. The average student loan debt (under $30,000) is skewed by a relatively few students with massive debt. Only 10% of borrowers have more than $45,000 in debt. 90% of borrowing is still federal loans, which are capped at around $30,000. > That makes for an extremely manageable loan payment even without applying for the extremely generous income based repayment options. We could go toe to toe with comparative stats on student loans etc. We could also talk about the rise in unpaid internships, the decrease in jobs stability, the increase in rent, the increase in difficulty in buying a home - very few if any macroeconomic indicators point to increasing financial stability for the middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/23 "2014-10-19T15:29:25Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > Even if all of that is true, $25,000 of debt is still a _staggeringly large_ burden for someone who has no job security and might not make that much money in a year (i.e. the average college graduate). If joblessness could strike at any moment (and for most college grads, it can), it’s almost suicidal to teeter on the edge of bankruptcy with a rent payment, student loan payment, plus other necessities, from the start. And any income-based repayment options mean that you’re going to be paying that minimum payment for 10+ years, which will just constantly chip away at any attempt at financial growth or savings you make during that time. Really? It’s under $300 a month at a standard payment plan. If $300 is a **staggeringly large** payment for a college graduate then they should probably live at home. Also, the average starting salary for a college graduate is currently $45,000 - not under $25. At $45,000, your take home pay on a daily basis is about $130. You’ll have made your student loan payment for the month after working 3 days. That’s the least staggering thing I’ve heard all day. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/24 "2014-10-19T15:40:29Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Also, **the average starting salary for a college graduate is currently $45,000** - not under $25. At $45,000, your take home pay on a daily basis is about $130. You’ll have made your student loan payment for the month after working 3 days. That’s the least staggering thing I’ve heard all day. I need a cite for that part I bolded, if it’s true, I’ll need to rethink _everything_. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/25 "2014-10-19T15:52:27Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I need a cite for that part I bolded, if it’s true, I’ll need to rethink _everything_. [http://naceweb.org/s09042013/salary-survey-average-starting-class-2013.aspx](http://naceweb.org/s09042013/salary-survey-average-starting-class-2013.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/26 "2014-10-19T15:56:19Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Why would it take 3 years of working full time to save up a few months rent? I graduated when I was 20 and worked a temp job because I was starting a business. It paid horribly, but it was still enough to rent an apartment. There’s more to moving into an apartment than being able to spring for the first month’s rent + security deposit. The “saving up” part is for things like- you know- furniture, appliances (which aren’t always present in an apartment,) utility bills, food, renter’s insurance, blah blah. “Moving out” is more than just “Hey, I found a place, bye folks!” > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Why does it take 3 years of working after college to afford to move out on your own? > > Moving out should happen right away. > [@even\_sven](#): > > While I am a fan of the idea of kids striking out on their own at 18, I think it’s a result of some pretty specific circumstances and I’m not surprised that we are reverting to the mean. Extended families have always been the norm pretty much everywhere. “18 and out” is pretty much a post-WWII United States mindset. It’s from a time when US industry was at its peak, and one had a far better chance finding a job right out of high school. If you lived in a manufacturing town, you could probably get a decent-paying job at a local plant, even unskilled labor. Or you’d start learning a trade in high school, then when you were done you could pursue a skilled trade. Nowadays, skilled trades and manufacturing jobs are looked down on as being only suitable for uneducated shitkickers, and you pretty much have to have a four year degree for anyone to consider hiring you for anything more than minimum wage otherwise. “18 and out” pretty much died in the 1990s. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/27 "2014-10-19T16:09:49Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > There’s more to moving into an apartment than being able to spring for the first month’s rent + security deposit. The “saving up” part is for things like- you know- furniture, appliances (which aren’t always present in an apartment,) utility bills, food, renter’s insurance, blah blah. “Moving out” is more than just “Hey, I found a place, bye folks!” You realize that people who have a problem with 25 being the new 21, in general, aren’t 20 or younger, right? We’ve all moved out on our own. Get an apartment that does have necessary appliances. All but the cheapest dives will have a stove. Dishwashers and washing machines aren’t necessary. Use a sink and a laundromat. Get shitty furniture at yard sales or when your uncle is replacing his couch. Don’t get renter’s insurance because you’re 22 and everything you own is practically worthless. Just figure it out like everybody else does. It’s a useful life experience. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/28 "2014-10-19T16:13:06Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Really? It’s under $300 a month at a standard payment plan. If $300 is a **staggeringly large** payment for a college graduate then they should probably live at home. > > Also, the average starting salary for a college graduate is currently $45,000 - not under $25. At $45,000, your take home pay on a daily basis is about $130. You’ll have made your student loan payment for the month after working 3 days. That’s the least staggering thing I’ve heard all day. It’s staggeringly large for someone who finds themselves suddenly unemployed, or unemployed for any real length of time–hence the comment about “no job security”. And I find your $45,000 number hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/29 "2014-10-19T16:22:49Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > It’s staggeringly large for someone who finds themselves suddenly unemployed, or unemployed for any real length of time–hence the comment about “no job security”. And I find your $45,000 number hard to believe. Yeah, life is risky. Most people in their 50s can’t easily afford extended unemployment either. How is that an argument for waiting until you’re 25 to start living as an independent adult? Here’s a second cite on the average income: [Fast Facts: Income of young adults (77)](http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77), if you don’t like **Ravenman’s**. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/30 "2014-10-19T16:31:33Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > There’s more to moving into an apartment than being able to spring for the first month’s rent + security deposit. The “saving up” part is for things like- you know- furniture, appliances (which aren’t always present in an apartment,) utility bills, food, renter’s insurance, blah blah. “Moving out” is more than just “Hey, I found a place, bye folks!” I adjusted my first full-time job after college for inflation, and in today’s dollars it would be $27,280. And life was awesome. Plus, back in those days, there was no craiglist where hipsters with iPhone 6s would complain that spending $40 for a perfectly fine in-the-window air conditioner was too much money, would you take $15 instead? [/crotchety old man] ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/31 "2014-10-19T16:40:19Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > It’s staggeringly large for someone who finds themselves suddenly unemployed, or unemployed for any real length of time–hence the comment about “no job security”. And I find your $45,000 number hard to believe. Me too. [Less than 40%](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/05/08/unemployment_and_the_class_of_2014_how_bad_is_the_job_market_for_new_college.html) of recent grads make $45,000 > [@](#): > > The bad news is that these recent B.A.s, working in jobs that don’t require a college degree, are in occupations that pay far less than in the past. It used to be that more than half of these overeducated young workers would find themselves in “good” jobs—meaning that they’d pay at least $45,000 in today’s market. Today, less than 40 percent do. Meanwhile, more than a fifth of this group were in low-wage jobs, meaning they paid $25,000 a year or less. And do those numbers only take in account the % earning more than $0? > [@](#): > > In its recent chartbook on youth joblessness, the Economic Policy Institute reported that roughly **8.5 percent of college graduates between the ages of 21 and 24 were unemployed**. That figure is based on a 12-month average between April 2013 and March 2014, so it’s not a perfect snapshot of the here and now. Still, it tells us that the post-collegiate job market, just like the rest of the labor market, certainly isn’t nearly back to normal. (For comparison, the unemployment rate for all college grads over the age of 25 is 3.3 percent, which is also still higher than normal.) More worrisomely, the EPI finds that a total of 16\*\*.8 percent of new grads are “underemployed\*\*,” meaning they’re either jobless and hunting for work; working part-time because they can’t find a full-time job; or **want a job, have looked within the past year, but have now given up on searching.** ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/32 "2014-10-19T16:51:49Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Me too. 😕 It’s an average starting salary. Of course a lot of graduates are going to make less than that. That’s what makes it an average. I would be interested in knowing the median salary but it doesn’t mean $45,000 isn’t the average just because some people make less than that. Nobody said starting salary is uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/33 "2014-10-19T17:03:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [NACE - Page not found](http://naceweb.org/s09042013/salary-survey-average-starting-class-2013.aspx) Ugh, I wasn’t expecting that. I don’t have time to rethink everything today, it’s _Sunday_ goddammit. Maybe next week. But on Monday the first thing I’m doing is asking for a raise . . . . How are they calculating benefits in those numbers btw? And yes, **elfkin** makes good points, but even with all that, I specifically thought starting salary would be lower - up to three years ago Robert Reich was saying around 35k, but that may have been median. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/34 "2014-10-19T17:39:13Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > How are they calculating benefits in those numbers btw? I assume starting salary means starting salary. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/35 "2014-10-19T17:42:44Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > You realize that people who have a problem with 25 being the new 21, in general, aren’t 20 or younger, right? We’ve all moved out on our own. Get an apartment that does have necessary appliances. All but the cheapest dives will have a stove. Dishwashers and washing machines aren’t necessary. Use a sink and a laundromat. > > Get shitty furniture at yard sales or when your uncle is replacing his couch. Don’t get renter’s insurance because you’re 22 and everything you own is practically worthless. > > Just figure it out like everybody else does. It’s a useful life experience. You’re falling into the trap of assuming everyone has every possible option equally available at all times. as well as the “the way things worked for me is the only possible correct way to do it” mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/36 "2014-10-19T17:47:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I assume starting salary means starting salary. Why would you assume that? I was not aware the term salary necessarily made that distnction, but I will look it up . … . ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/37 "2014-10-19T17:59:06Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Why would you assume that? I was not aware the term salary necessarily made that distnction, but I will look it up . … . Uh, because the word “salary” is generally defined and understood to be a fixed annual monetary compensation that does not include the value of fringe benefits? Call me crazy… Who knows, maybe the survey asked respondents to submit their “salaries” in terms of Canadian “dollars.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/38 "2014-10-19T17:59:25Z")
Wikipedia is not the absolute best source fr solving any dispute, but just to give you an idea of what my thoughts on the meaning of the word _salary_ here’s what it says: > [@](#): > > A salary is a form of periodic payment from an employer to an employee, which may be specified in an employment contract. It is contrasted with piece wages, where each job, hour or other unit is paid separately, rather than on a periodic basis. From the point of view of running a business, salary can also be viewed as the cost of acquiring and retaining human resources for running operations, and is then termed personnel expense or salary expense. In accounting, salaries are recorded in payroll accounts.[1] > > Salary is a fixed amount of money or compensation paid to an employee by an employer in return for work performed. Salary is commonly paid in fixed intervals, for example, monthly payments of one-twelfth of the annual salary. . . > > Today, the concept of a salary continues to evolve as part of a system of the total compensation that employers offer to employees. Salary (also now known as fixed pay) is coming to be seen as part of a “total rewards” system which includes bonuses, incentive pay, commissions, benefits and perquisites (or perks), and various other tools which help employers link rewards to an employee’s measured performance. So, if you want to continue to dispute what the word salary means, I can look for more evidence to solidify the point. If you want to concede the above definition of salary is accurate, just answer the original question. Pretty please, with sugar on top. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/39 "2014-10-19T18:00:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Uh, because the word “salary” is generally defined and understood to be a fixed annual monetary compensation that does not include the value of fringe benefits? Call me crazy… > > Who knows, maybe the survey asked respondents to submit their “salaries” in terms of Canadian “dollars.” Please cite a source for this. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762/40 "2014-10-19T18:11:48Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Yeah, life is risky. Most people in their 50s can’t easily afford extended unemployment either. How is that an argument for waiting until you’re 25 to start living as an independent adult? Taking a risk where the always-on-the-horizon potential consequence is “utter financial ruin” is a different animal entirely than living in a world where, every so often, unforeseen circumstances conspire to leave someone in utter financial ruin. In the one case, simply by exercising judicious caution one can reduce the chances of being left homeless with debt collectors nipping at one’s heels almost to zero, whereas in the other case one’s circumstances are beyond one’s control. Besides, the 50-year-old unemployed person has had 25+ years to build up savings, a retirement fund perhaps, job experience, connections, and the like. The 22-year-old has had no such time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-25-the-new-21/701762.md?page=3)