# Is a belief in ghosts compatible with atheism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417 "2011-07-18T06:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/41 "2011-07-18T20:23:02Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > So a God that is so infused into everything (“omni”) so that it is completely impossible to observe its behavior from a separate frame of reference is more logically incoherent than to ascribe ruined film, things flying about the room, seemingly inexplicable lights, being a little scared of deserted places, and even rapes to spiritual entities that leave your body upon your demise. Yes, because when you start throwing infinity into the mix you start getting logical paradoxes, not just contradictions of physical law. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/42 "2011-07-19T00:40:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’d call ghosts a less fantastic claim simply because the claims made about them are so much less extreme, what with all the “omnis” typically attributed to “God”. We can’t at least claim that ghosts are outright logically contradictory like we can with God. “God” is in fact pretty much the most extreme, implausible ideas out there. > > First; as said we have evidence that people exist, so ghosts are just supernatural remnants of something we know exist. And the claims made about gods, especially the popular tri-omni god are far more extreme than those made about ghosts. > Their plans and motives are more likely to be benevolent and have some connection to reality. “The slaveholders won’t let us teach the Bible to the slaves” and “another religious faction supports slavery, so we oppose it” are not benevolent. Nor is “I oppose slavery because my priest told me to”. > > But again, the claims made about gods are far more extreme and logically incoherent. And believing in spirits but not gods is no more logically incoherent than believing in elephants but not unicorns. Mm, I think your militant hatred of Christianity is clouding your logic on this one. When you’re talking about a postulation that has never received even the scarcest support from real scientific inquiry either way I’m not sure how there can be a difference of degree. To me a claim of an omnipotent God is just as fantastical as a claim that a human consciousness can continue to exist once the biological human being has died, and that this remnant consciousness is both ethereal but able to interact with the physical realm at will and manipulate objects. Further, that this post-life human can perhaps persist for hundreds of years after the death (if not indefinitely), their presence being sustained by energy sources unknown to man. Their ability to pass through solid objects would violate one of the fundamental laws of physics, so that in and of itself makes it “just as impossible” as anything else. Impossible is impossible. There isn’t degrees of impossibility. It is impossible for me to accelerate a rock to 20 times the speed of light and it is impossible for me to accelerate to 1.01 times the speed of light, one isn’t more impossible than the other. It is a binary state, not one of degree. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/43 "2011-07-19T00:42:43Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > A lot of people do have direct experiences with things that seem to be ghosts. I’ve had one myself. These are roundly mocked on these boards, but that doesn’t change the experiences. I don’t know anyone that has had a god experience, though, beyond a vague “I felt the presence of God,” usually after some tragedy that you’d expect a loving god to spare the person from in the first place. I agree with **Der Trihs** that believing in ghosts is much less extreme than believing in gods, we at least have anecdotal evidence for ghosts. So your personal experience about something you could never hope to prove is more valid than the personal experience of thousands of religious people throughout history who have claimed to see the Madonna, spoken with God directly, raised the dead with God’s power and etc? From where I sit you’re all talking about impossible things that can not stand up to any scientific test designed to falsify them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/44 "2011-07-19T00:44:21Z")
This may be of interest: [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/45 "2011-07-19T01:00:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > This may be of interest: > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122178219865054585.html) Interesting. It seems to back up the Chesterton quote that **Mr Moto** cited earlier (and, interestingly enough, concludes with another, similar Chesterton quote). For those who want to know what the article says before clicking on it, the gist is > [@](#): > > “What Americans Really Believe,” a comprehensive new study released by Baylor University yesterday, shows that traditional Christian religion greatly decreases belief in everything from the efficacy of palm readers to the usefulness of astrology. It also shows that the irreligious and the members of more liberal Protestant denominations, far from being resistant to superstition, tend to be much more likely to believe in the paranormal and in pseudoscience than evangelical Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/46 "2011-07-19T01:03:38Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So your personal experience about something you could never hope to prove is more valid than the personal experience of thousands of religious people throughout history who have claimed to see the Madonna, spoken with God directly, raised the dead with God’s power and etc? From where I sit you’re all talking about impossible things that can not stand up to any scientific test designed to falsify them. Yep. It’s not like seeing things that at least seem to be ghosts is a particularly unusual experience…if I was the only person I know who had had such an experience, I’d be more likely to think I was hallucinating. But I’m not. I know lots of people who have compelling, first person experience ghost stories. I don’t personally know anyone who claims to have spoken to God, seen the Madonna, or raised the dead (really?). Those few I’ve read about seem to be either crazy or interested in making money on the experience, so I don’t take them particularly seriously. That said, while I do believe, sort of, in ghosts (but not in God), it’s not something that is important in my life. They’re just a fun little thing to me, nothing like religion usually is to those who believe in it. If I’m wrong, oh, well, nothing lost. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/47 "2011-07-19T01:15:09Z")
Again, unless it can withstand some scientific falsification, they are equally unlikely to me. There are actually many people who have said they have personally heard God talk to them directly not “felt the presence” but heard God talking to them. There are many people who claim they have interacted with the Virgin Mary, or seen the Virgin Mary appear before them. There have even been several instances in South America where large numbers of people claimed to have seen an apparition of the Virgin Mary. Throughout the 20th century the Catholic Church has even “confirmed” some dozen or so apparition appearances by Mary as being “legitimate” and many more as being “fraudulent” in fact the current Pontiff a few years back spoke out admonishing people for coming forward with some many fraudulent viewings. St. Faustina Kowalska was visited by apparitions of Jesus Christ himself and was Sainted for it. So I don’t doubt you haven’t met people like this, but there are still plenty of them, probably millions. I would wager you might meet more if you spent more time with devoutly religious people in Latin America or Eastern Europe where these phenomena are more common. Claims of raising the dead were extremely common from Christians up until the 17th century or so, and tapered off after then. I said that one mostly in jest as I’m not aware of any such widespread claims in the modern era, but until 200-300 years ago Christians regularly made claims in writing and in speech that, with God working through them, they had been able to bring the dead back to life. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/48 "2011-07-19T01:31:45Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Interesting. It seems to back up the Chesterton quote that **Mr Moto** cited earlier (and, interestingly enough, concludes with another, similar Chesterton quote). > > For those who want to know what the article says before clicking on it, the gist is How could it be otherwise? (1) Traditional Christians are enjoined **not** to believe in those things. St. Augustine himself wrote a debunking of astrology. (2) Belief in crystal power, astrology, etc., is much **easier** (and less dangerous) than belief in Christ because it requires **no form of moral commitment.** ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/49 "2011-07-19T01:36:43Z")
That’s fine. I’m not trying to convince you ( **Martin Hyde** ) that ghosts exist, only saying why I don’t find the belief in ghosts to be incompatible with atheism, as per the OP. You’re right that I have not carefully examined the claims of South American Catholics, mostly because I don’t really care. Like I said, it’s not a big thing for me. My experience and that of many of my friends and family suggests to me that there is some phenomenon in this world that is not adequately explained by current laboratory testing. I find it interesting, is all. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/50 "2011-07-19T01:39:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Belief in ghosts involves a grave deficiency in critical thinking skills. Not necesarily. That was my whole point. Some people may understand the reasons for skepticism and how to apply the logic of critical thought, but choose their one sacred cow that they never apply it to. This is far more common than someone being perfectly skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/51 "2011-07-19T01:43:57Z")
**Martin Hyde** is spot on about the “atheist” mentioned in the OP being a regular dumb lefty of Christianity/patriarchy/basic sanity hating variety. When people stop having to do lots of “sweat of your brow” for a living, many of them apparently migrate away from the cold reality of [The Gods of the Copybook Headings - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gods_of_the_Copybook_Headings) and gravitate to all sorts of madness. Nevertheless, I don’t see why “ghosts” should be antithetical to atheism even in the most strict interpretation. We know empirically that many people claim “ghost” encounters, with some places yielding lots of such reports. So if you are a scientifically minded person who may have encountered this shit and have nothing better to do with your time and money you can go knock yourself out trying to study this phenomenon. Right up there with ufologists, hunters for Sasquatch etc who can be (and often are) atheist as well. As somebody else has already noted here at SD in another thread, neutrinos (or some other such cosmic particle, not sure of the details) are observed very irregularly as well. Of course, the people who study **that** phenomenon have excellent job security and pay courtesy of large academic institutions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/52 "2011-07-19T04:12:41Z")
Let us bear in mind one obvious but often-overlooked point before we proceed: There is **no necessarily logical connection whatsoever** between the existence of God or gods, and the existence of some form of personal spiritual survival after death. Either could exist without the other. ---
**Author:** ![HumanBear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/919ad9/32.png) [@HumanBear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanBear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/53 "2011-07-19T10:57:28Z")
Well I’m an atheist and I saw a ‘ghost’ twice a couple of months ago. I was lying on my bed when I felt something in the room, I turned and there was a white, semi-transparent woman by the door. I felt absolutely terrified, I guess like the emotions you sometimes have in a dream. Then I pulled myself together and the ‘event’ finished. I could have believed it was a ghost, but since that seems very unlikely, and as I was taking medication for extreme dizziness that had all kinds of side effects I think it’s more likely my brain was making stuff up. Good how it fit in with the reports of ghosts I’ve heard of before, but probably also an indication of how uncreative my brain is. I do agree that atheism does not have anything to do with believing or not believing in ghosts, but it does seem to me that to be a thinking atheist rather than just a disliker of religion you need a certain amount of critical thinking, and that this skeptical thinking should be used in realms other than God and his existence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/54 "2011-07-19T11:08:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (2) Belief in crystal power, astrology, etc., is much **easier** (and less dangerous) than belief in Christ because it requires **no form of moral commitment.** Neither does belief in Christ; you can use that to justify everything from genocide to helping little old ladies across the street. And belief in Christ is the _exact opposite_ of dangerous in an intensely Christian nation like America. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/55 "2011-07-19T23:21:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let us bear in mind one obvious but often-overlooked point before we proceed: > > There is **no necessarily logical connection whatsoever** between the existence of God or gods, and the existence of some form of personal spiritual survival after death. Either could exist without the other. I’d go further: there is no necessarily logical connection between the possible objective reality of the various disparate observed phenomena that are lumped together under the label “ghosts”, and the existence of some form of personal spiritual survival after death. I’m sure there are rational, materialist, atheists who are of the the opinion that at least some ghosts might be some natural phenomenon that we don’t currently understand, for instance. Having said which, of course, odd photographic effect = dead husband is a bit of a leap. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/56 "2011-07-19T23:47:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Neither does belief in Christ; you can use that to justify everything from genocide to helping little old ladies across the street. And belief in Christ is the _exact opposite_ of dangerous in an intensely Christian nation like America. I did not mean “dangerous” to the believer. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/57 "2011-07-20T01:26:19Z")
I always tell people: “I don’t believe in ghosts, but I’m afraid of them” Take that however you want 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/58 "2011-07-20T06:05:31Z")
It’s clear your friend is not an atheist. I’m atheist/anti-theist. There are no ghosts, no gods or goddesses, no spiritual psychic powers, no NDEs(don’t get me started on that crap), and you or anyone else does not have a soul. The part of the ideology of your friend’s appearance of her dead dad in photos means she is in favor OF THE IDEA that her father still exists. He doesn’t, sadly. This is the same reasoning of people who swear that their loved ones go to paradise because they love THE IDEA of a paradise for their loved ones. I’m a fan of wishful thinking, only if it’s within the boundaries of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Nica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nica)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/59 "2011-07-20T20:27:41Z")
I find it a little odd that she doesn’t believe in a supernatural being yet she believes her husband is now such. So she believes he has a spirit or soul, yes admonishes everyone else’s belief in a deity? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417/60 "2011-07-21T17:39:34Z")
> [@Nica](#): > > I find it a little odd that she doesn’t believe in a supernatural being yet she believes her husband is now such. “Supernatural beings” are nonexistent by definition. If God exists, God is part of nature, part of the way things are. And so is a ghost, whatever a ghost might actually be. But, once again, **there is no contradiction, because either could exist without the other.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-belief-in-ghosts-compatible-with-atheism/589417.md?page=4)