# Is a box full of flying bees heavier than an empty box? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 28, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337 "2011-01-28T21:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/21 "2011-01-29T05:17:06Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Awww, party pooper! Yeah, a real buzz kill. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/22 "2011-01-29T06:09:58Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > What a coincidence! So did both my Aunt Beas. Thanks a lot. Now you have given me the mental image of Aunt Bea’s box. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/23 "2011-01-29T09:30:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You don’t carry a box full of bees unless it is airtight. That’s how my great-aunt Virginia died. You put your great-aunt Virginia in an airtight box? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/24 "2011-01-29T10:01:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You don’t carry a box full of bees unless it is airtight. That’s how my great-aunt Virginia died. When you carry a box full of bees, [two sides of the box had better be screen](http://www.bees-and-beekeeping.com/images/package-bees-2.jpg)or they’ll overheat and die. Apparently Sears stopped shipping bees and beekeeping supplies in the eighties, but before then you could send away for, say, two pounds of bees and the box they came in would look a lot like the one in the link. The queen was in a separate little box inside. It was the seventies when Dad bought bees from Sears. We were living in the suburbs and discovered that when a box of bees comes into a suburban post office on a Sunday, the Postmaster will drive them out to you immediately just to get them out of his building. The first thing you do when you get a box of bees is to paint the screen with sugar water, to restore their little bodies after the trip, during which they were fasting. They do not fly around in the box. They crawl carefully, following their instinct to keep the queen covered and protected. When they lick the sugar water off of the screens, their little tougues uncurl and poke through the screen. You have to look carefully, but up close they make the screen look like living velvet, undulating the sweetness off of the screen. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/25 "2011-01-29T10:33:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Imagine the box has walls a foot thick, so you can’t tell there are bees inside. To you, it’s a block of something. > > The block has mass. Nothing that happens inside that block is going to change the mass (nitpicks about bloody quantum fluctuations and proton decay notwithstanding) > > The movement of the bees within the box might exert temporary reaction forces perceptible outside, but they will all add to zero over time. The box weighs the same as a box of dead bees. > > A box of air weighs less, because it has no bees in it. However, the bees are neither alive nor dead as long as the box is sealed. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/26 "2011-01-29T10:52:13Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > However, the bees are neither alive nor dead as long as the box is sealed. Wrong. They’re both alive AND dead. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/27 "2011-01-29T13:42:26Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > … You have to look carefully, but up close they make the screen look like living velvet, undulating the sweetness off of the screen. This description is both very beautiful and very creepy. ---
**Author:** ![miragesyzygy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@miragesyzygy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miragesyzygy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/28 "2011-01-29T17:03:43Z")
nvm wrong thread ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/29 "2011-01-29T18:14:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If the bees are flying, then they are exerting pressure on the air by beating their wings. Said pressure would be transmitted to the base of the box, and I should tink it would be equal to the pressure the bees’ bodies would exert on the bottom of the box if the bees’ bodies were lying directly on it. So I should think the weight would be the same. > > I could be wrong, though. Anyway, I see a simple way to determine it. Acquire box suitable for containing bees in sufficient number to be noticable on your scale. Weigh box. Place bees in box, seal it, weigh it again. Allow bees to die; weigh a third time. The tricky part is not being stung to death by the scores of bees you’re screwing with. Nice reasoning. But what if the screen mesh is on the bottom ? Would the box soar ? ---
**Author:** ![loshan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce73a5/32.png) [@loshan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loshan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/30 "2011-01-29T18:23:54Z")
Boxes of bees, dead Aunts and exploding nipples. All in one thread. Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/31 "2011-01-29T18:31:44Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > > [@cochrane](#): > > > > However, the bees are neither alive nor dead as long as the box is sealed. > > Wrong. They’re both alive AND dead. Wrong and wrong. They’re BOTH neither alive nor dead, AND both alive and dead ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/32 "2011-01-29T18:40:50Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Wrong and wrong. They’re BOTH neither alive nor dead, AND both alive and dead Excuse me, Dr. Schrödinger, but have you seen my cat? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/33 "2011-01-29T19:30:32Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Excuse me, Dr. Schrödinger, but have you seen my cat? 😃 Yes and no… ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/34 "2011-01-29T19:38:29Z")
Are conveyor belts and treadmills considered the same? ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/35 "2011-01-30T01:14:04Z")
It’s a moot point, since Science has proven that bees can’t fly. ---
**Author:** ![wbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/439d5e/32.png) [@wbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wbeaty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/36 "2011-01-30T07:04:18Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > It’s a moot point, since Science has proven that bees can’t fly. Yes. No. Part of the bumblebee myth is that the myth is mythical. The main myth was that insect flight **isn’t** a mystery. Wasn’t. Until recently (like 1995.) Navier-Stokes equations don’t necessarily have solutions, so bumblebee flight remained unexplained. Even supercomputing numerical simulations don’t match real world flows. Science proves that bumblebees can’t fly, since Science doesn’t know about several different vortex phenomena. Today we know that, among other things, insects form and launch vortices, they slap wings for increased vortex shedding, and they push off from their own spinning wakes. If all we know is steady flight of fixed wings, and if math doesn’t work, then we need an underwater robotic model of giant flapping Hawk-Moth wings to make any research headway, like Ellington’s at Cambridge. [http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/ellington/aerodynamics.html](http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/ellington/aerodynamics.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/37 "2011-01-30T07:44:51Z")
> [@wbeaty](#): > > Yes. No. Part of the bumblebee myth is that the myth is mythical. The main myth was that insect flight **isn’t** a mystery. Wasn’t. Until recently (like 1995.) Navier-Stokes equations don’t necessarily have solutions, so bumblebee flight remained unexplained. Even supercomputing numerical simulations don’t match real world flows. Science proves that bumblebees can’t fly, since Science doesn’t know about several different vortex phenomena. > > Today we know that, among other things, insects form and launch vortices, they slap wings for increased vortex shedding, and they push off from their own spinning wakes. If all we know is steady flight of fixed wings, and if math doesn’t work, then we need an underwater robotic model of giant flapping Hawk-Moth wings to make any research headway, like Ellington’s at Cambridge. > > [http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/ellington/aerodynamics.html](http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/ellington/aerodynamics.html) From your link: > [@](#): > > Let us begin with aeroplane wings and a basic understanding of how they generate lift. Structurally, aeroplane wings are rounded at the leading edge, sharp at the trailing edge and are often cambered, meaning they have a slight curvature when viewed in cross section. An aeroplane wing generates lift when the airflow becomes separated at the leading edge, and the air moves faster over the upper wing surface than along the lower surface. This causes a pressure difference to develop between the upper and lower wing surfaces because, in accordance with Bernoulli’s principle, fast-moving fluid has a lower pressure than slow-moving fluid. It is the pressure difference above and below the wing that causes lift. O RLY? ---
**Author:** ![wbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/439d5e/32.png) [@wbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wbeaty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/38 "2011-01-30T08:21:08Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > O RLY? Nah, the classic mistake is to insist that the parcels must race to “rejoin” at the trailing edge. Java simulator: [http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/right2.html](http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/right2.html) A box of hovering bees with screen on the top and the bottom of the box will emit a collimated jet of air downwards. To better visualize this, set bees on fire, then quickly blow them out again. That way the smoke will mark the air flow. The intake above the box will be a radial laminar flow, like a shrinking onion centered on the box. Better provide a smoke marker of a different color by setting yourself on fire, then blowing yourself out again. Oooo, I just remembered. Titanium tetrachloride! It’s an oily liquid that oxidizes on contact with air to create big white clouds of smoke. If you paint TiCl4 on a surface, that surface starts emitting smoke. If you fill a christmas ornament with TiCl4, then dress all in black and fling the ball at the ground between your feet, you’ll vanish in a huge cloud of white titanium oxide smoke. On second thought, throw the ball at your enemy. Apparently TiCl4 is fairly nasty stuff. Another misconception not usually discussed: a widespread misunderstanding about where the _other_ end of the lifting force lands. After all, forces exist in pairs, and if the wing is being forced upwards, where specifically does the other half of the force-pair attach? Surprising answer: in a 2D world it attaches to the starting vortex miles behind. The wing is pushed up, and all the gas associated with the starting vortex is forced down. BUT, if the distance to the starting vortex is greater than the wing’s altitude above ground, then the airfoil remains trapped in “air cushion” or ground-effect mode, and it directly pushes upon the ground. Fortunately in the 3D world these weird phenomena don’t arise except when the aircraft is less than a wingspan above the runway. 3D aircraft fly by shedding 3D vorticies. 2D flight isn’t that great for explaining 3D aircraft. After all, in a 2D diagram the wing is infinitely long. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/39 "2011-01-30T13:58:09Z")
I was all excited to see a video of a giant underwater robot hawk moth! Is that it in the photo where it looks like it’s lit from within by the nuclear fury of the sun and it’s just landed on a darkened, volcanic planet, and is eating it? ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/40 "2011-01-31T17:30:55Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > What if they were flying upside down? ¿ʇɐɥʇ op sǝǝq uɐɔ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337.md?page=3)