# Is a box full of flying bees heavier than an empty box? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 28, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337 "2011-01-28T21:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/41 "2011-01-31T17:36:55Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Imagine the box has walls a foot thick, so you can’t tell there are bees inside. I stinging your dog! ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/42 "2011-01-31T17:59:33Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > When you carry a box full of bees, [two sides of the box had better be screen](http://www.bees-and-beekeeping.com/images/package-bees-2.jpg)or they’ll overheat and die. Apparently Sears stopped shipping bees and beekeeping supplies in the eighties, but before then you could send away for, say, two pounds of bees and the box they came in would look a lot like the one in the link. The queen was in a separate little box inside. > > It was the seventies when Dad bought bees from Sears. We were living in the suburbs and discovered that when a box of bees comes into a suburban post office on a Sunday, the Postmaster will drive them out to you immediately just to get them out of his building. > > The first thing you do when you get a box of bees is to paint the screen with sugar water, to restore their little bodies after the trip, during which they were fasting. They do not fly around in the box. They crawl carefully, following their instinct to keep the queen covered and protected. When they lick the sugar water off of the screens, their little tougues uncurl and poke through the screen. You have to look carefully, but up close they make the screen look like living velvet, undulating the sweetness off of the screen. My mailman was NOT happy about delivering boxes of bees to us. She would honk so that we would come and get them from the truck. The queens come in an envelope, which she didn’t mind. I don’t remember if it has LIVE BEES stamped on it. While Sears doesn’t sell them, plenty of other place will ship bees. ---
**Author:** ![goodie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@goodie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goodie)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/43 "2011-01-31T18:49:33Z")
PSXer, tell your “friend” that what the box weighs is not terribly important as long as the carrying is consensual and your “friend” and the bees (and the box) are all of age and having fun. Just be careful not to carry that box across state lines… ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/44 "2011-01-31T19:02:59Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Wrong and wrong. They’re BOTH neither alive nor dead, AND both alive and dead But can it be, philosophically, that, ipso facto, the bees will half not be? ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/45 "2011-01-31T20:30:21Z")
Back to a serious answer. I think it would be correct to say that a box of flying bees is not only heavier than an empty box, but that it would also be heavier (very slightly) than the same box now full of dead bees. Just scanned the thread so sorry if this has already been pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![spenczar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@spenczar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spenczar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/46 "2011-01-31T20:41:40Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > Back to a serious answer. > > I think it would be correct to say that a box of flying bees is not only heavier than an empty box, but that it would also be heavier (very slightly) than the same box now full of dead bees. > > Just scanned the thread so sorry if this has already been pointed out. No, it would be - on average - exactly the same mass if it were full of dead bees. Think about one bee. It can be in one of four states: [ol] [li]On the floor[/li][li]Going up[/li][li]Hovering[/li][li]Falling[/li][/ol] That’s it. What is the effect of each of these? On the floor: The same as a dead bee, clearly. Going up: Slightly more than a dead bee. The bee is moving upwards, which means it needs to be pushing downwards with a force greater than its own weight. That force gets transmitted to the bottom of the box, and feels like weight. Hovering: Equal to a dead bee. The bee has to push down with a force equal to its own weight. Falling: Less than a dead bee. The bee is pushing down with less than a force equal to its own weight, which is the reason it falls. Since the box has a top and a bottom, none of the bees can be going up for very long, nor can they be falling for very long. Indeed, to do any falling, they need to have done some rising. In the end, if you average the weight over a small bit of time, the _average_ weight will be exactly the same as the dead bees. But if you take a snapshot at some instant, you can’t know. If all the bees suddenly stop beating their wings and fall, they are all weightless, and the box will weigh less than a box full of dead bees. If they all take off from the bottom at the same time, it will weight more. But averaged, it’s the same as the dead bees. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/47 "2011-01-31T20:54:36Z")
> [@spenczar](#): > > On the floor: The same as a dead bee, clearly. > Going up: Slightly more than a dead bee. The bee is moving upwards, which means it needs to be pushing downwards with a force greater than its own weight. That force gets transmitted to the bottom of the box, and feels like weight. > Hovering: Equal to a dead bee. The bee has to push down with a force equal to its own weight. > Falling: Less than a dead bee. The bee is pushing down with less than a force equal to its own weight, which is the reason it falls. Walter Brennan could not have explained it better. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/48 "2011-01-31T21:01:50Z")
> [@spenczar](#): > > Hovering: Equal to a dead bee. The bee has to push down with a force equal to its own weight. No, I think you’re wrong, because the hovering bee has kinetic energy and hence more mass (relativistically). This would, of course, be a tiny effect and I’m probably being horribly pedantic. ---
**Author:** ![Yoyodyne\_Propulsion\_Systems](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/82dd89/32.png) [@Yoyodyne\_Propulsion\_Systems](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yoyodyne_Propulsion_Systems)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/49 "2011-02-01T12:25:38Z")
Ahh, but no one has mentioned that the dead bees WOULD weigh less than the live ones as their souls would have fled their lifeless little bee corpses… ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/50 "2011-02-01T13:09:10Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > But can it be, philosophically, that, ipso facto, the bees will half not be? That only applies to Eric. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/51 "2011-02-01T13:12:04Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > No, I think you’re wrong, because the hovering bee has kinetic energy and hence more mass (relativistically). This would, of course, be a tiny effect and I’m probably being horribly pedantic. I don’t think this matters for reference frame outside of the box (I could be wrong about this, however) ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/52 "2011-02-01T13:33:32Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > No, I think you’re wrong, because the hovering bee has kinetic energy and hence more mass (relativistically). This would, of course, be a tiny effect and I’m probably being horribly pedantic. A perfectly hovering bee is not moving (in the reference frame of the box), so it shouldn’t have any more relatavistic momentum than a dead/sitting bee. Well, OK its wings are moving, so they will have some extra momentum. A rising or falling bee will have some extra momentum, though. But of course any kinetic energy increase in the bees is going to be exactly balanced by the tine loss of mass as chemicals that are storing energy inside the bee’s body undergo reactions. But we don’t need to worry about the details: since no energy is going in or out of the box, the relatavistic mass of the box as a whole system has to be constant. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/53 "2011-02-01T13:36:09Z")
> [@spenczar](#): > > No, it would be - on average - exactly the same mass if it were full of dead bees. > > Think about one bee. It can be in one of four states: > [ol] > [li]On the floor[/li][li]Going up[/li][li]Hovering[/li][li]Falling[/li][/ol] > That’s it. What is the effect of each of these? > > On the floor: The same as a dead bee, clearly. > Going up: Slightly more than a dead bee. The bee is moving upwards, which means it needs to be pushing downwards with a force greater than its own weight. That force gets transmitted to the bottom of the box, and feels like weight. > Hovering: Equal to a dead bee. The bee has to push down with a force equal to its own weight. > Falling: Less than a dead bee. The bee is pushing down with less than a force equal to its own weight, which is the reason it falls. > > Since the box has a top and a bottom, none of the bees can be going up for very long, nor can they be falling for very long. Indeed, to do any falling, they need to have done some rising. In the end, if you average the weight over a small bit of time, the _average_ weight will be exactly the same as the dead bees. > > But if you take a snapshot at some instant, you can’t know. If all the bees suddenly stop beating their wings and fall, they are all weightless, and the box will weigh less than a box full of dead bees. If they all take off from the bottom at the same time, it will weight more. But averaged, it’s the same as the dead bees. Post 19 grumble grumble. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/54 "2011-02-01T14:20:29Z")
The box with flying bees weighs exactly the weight of the box plus the bees, so yes it weighs more with flying bees in it. Many people that have asked this question in the past on this board actually asked the question comparing the weight of a box of bees that are at rest in the box and the same box of bees when they are flying in the box. In that case they box of bees weighs the same regardless if they fly or rest in the box. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/55 "2011-02-01T16:24:14Z")
What if they were jumping, instead of flying? ---
**Author:** ![Tard\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tard\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tard_Boy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/56 "2011-02-01T17:12:24Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Wrong. They’re both alive AND dead. Zombees! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/57 "2011-02-01T18:26:13Z")
Actually, it doesn’t matter if the bees are _moving_ up or down, since a bee that’s moving at a constant speed is only generating net forces on its surroundings equal to its weight. What matters is whether the bee is _accelerating_ up or down. ---
**Author:** ![TheseGoToEleven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/848f3c/32.png) [@TheseGoToEleven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheseGoToEleven)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/58 "2011-02-01T18:30:46Z")
> [@Tard\_Boy](#): > > Zombees! :eek: Awesome - a whole new genre of horror: bees that don’t die when they sting you, BECAUSE THEY’RE ALREADY DEAD! THEY’LL NEVER STOP!! AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!:eek: ---
**Author:** ![PAjoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pajoe/32/58_2.png) [@PAjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PAjoe)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/59 "2011-02-01T18:38:54Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > That only applies to Eric. only if Bisected accidentally.. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337/60 "2011-02-01T18:55:39Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You put your great-aunt Virginia in an airtight box? And it really put a bee in her bonnet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-box-full-of-flying-bees-heavier-than-an-empty-box/569337.md?page=4)