# Is a call to preform a military coup illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603 "2020-04-26T12:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/1 "2020-04-26T12:47:44Z")
A legal question about the closed thread “Is it time to cut the bullshit and have a military coup to overthrow Donald Trump” link below. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=894986](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=894986) The Mod closed it with this: > [@Johanthan Chance](#): > > Do not advocate illegal activities on the SDMB. > > Closed. No warning issued. Now I don’t want to go into the specific situation discussed, but I want to know legally of such a thread is actually ‘advocating illegal activities’ in a strict legal sense. Opening up with if a coup (any coup, again not this situation) is successful, is it illegal? It would appear that the success would render the action legal. If unsuccessful yes it would most likely be found illegal. The OP’s call for the coup seems to be wrapped up in the last paragraph: > [@](#): > > If the 25th Amendment cannot be enforced, I call upon our military to remove this obviously incompetent clown from the White House, place him in a mental institution, and install Mike Pence as President with an election as followed in November! The question, I guess comes down to what is the situation that the 25th Amendment can not be enforced? If it can’t be enforced, which depending on the reason may or may not be a constitutional crisis. Can it not be enforced due to a illegal/unconstitutional power grab and there is currently no constitutional mechanism left to address the situation, would such a call to arms by a US citizen actually be illegal, or would it be based on the outcome, and such a action akin to a citizen’s arrest, though for mental health reasons and being a danger to others? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/2 "2020-04-26T14:39:09Z")
Yes, of course it is illegal. 18 U.S. Code § 2383 makes it illegal for anyone to engage in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States. Your distinction between a successful coup and an unsuccessful one are meaningless. Do you agree that it would be illegal for someone to kill every human on the planet? _But what if that person was successful at actually killing every single person on the planet. Then it would be legal, right? Because there would be nobody around to render the action illegal. Right? Maybe if he is unsuccessful, it would likely be illegal to kill a few billion people, I guess. But if he managed to kill all of them, then it would be totally legal._ That’s how you sound. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/3 "2020-04-26T15:07:18Z")
It would be illegal under the existing laws of the United States. The fact that if such a coup succeeded, the new regime would enact new laws which retroactively legitimized their actions would not change this initial illegality. It’s like the American Revolution; it was illegal under British law for the Americans to declare independence. But they succeeded in forming a new country and that meant that they were no longer under the jurisdiction of British law. However the initial act was still illegal. There are ways in which an American President can be legally removed from office; he can be voted out in an election, he can be impeached, or he can be removed under the 25th Amendment. But there is no legal way for the military to remove him from office. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/4 "2020-04-26T15:24:32Z")
Isn’t it sedition? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/5 "2020-04-26T15:26:53Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Yes, of course it is illegal. 18 U.S. Code § 2383 makes it illegal for anyone to engage in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States. Your distinction between a successful coup and an unsuccessful one are meaningless. But is it illegal to advocate the overthrow of the US government? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/6 "2020-04-26T15:39:59Z")
\*\*carnivorousplant: \*\* > [@](#): > > 18 U.S. Code § 2385. > > Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or > > Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or > > Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof— > > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction. And moreover, for any actual _member of the military_, attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition, are \*capital \*crimes (UCMJ Article 94). Whether some rando on the Internet going “will no one deliver us from this turbulent salesman” would actually meet the threshold to get any authorities in motion is a separate matter which those same authorities probably have to answer multiple times every day even under normal circumstances. But directly advocating military sublevation does conflict with how the Board’s rules have been applied in the past to other illegal activities. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/7 "2020-04-26T16:02:12Z")
Federal law mentions state governments as well. Does this mean the right to revolution in New Hampshire’s state constitution (Article 10) is null and void? The federal law also is contrary to one of the intents of the 2nd Amendment as well as statements made by some of our founders. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/8 "2020-04-26T16:13:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Federal law mentions state governments as well. > > Does this mean the right to revolution in New Hampshire’s state constitution (Article 10) is null and void? We’re drifting away from strict GQ territory here, but my understanding is that the NH right to revolution, as those in KY, PA and TN, would apply under the terms of the Declaration of Independence, when the established government has lost its legitimacy and become destructive of the inalienable natural rights of its people. Not just when someone is governing ineptly. Similarly in the French Declaration of the Rights of Man the right of Resistance to Opression which ranks as fundamental together with liberty and property . ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/9 "2020-04-26T16:55:23Z")
That’s pretty definite. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/10 "2020-04-26T17:11:13Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > 18 U.S. Code § 2383 makes it illegal for anyone to engage in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States. “Call to” != “engage in” in my non-lawyer English. But the courts may feel otherwise. Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/11 "2020-04-26T17:11:15Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The federal law also is contrary to one of the intents of the 2nd Amendment as well as statements made by some of our founders. **Moderator Note** Let’s not hijack this into a debate on the intent of the 2nd Amendment. Stick to the specific question in the OP. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/12 "2020-04-26T17:38:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “Call to” != “engage in” in my non-lawyer English. But the courts may feel otherwise. Does anyone know? [Criminal Conspiracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)#United_States) requires two people. As long as nobody answers your call, you are safe. But the moment someone else takes up your call, you could be in trouble. In recent years, the courts have been reluctant to convict people of [sedition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States), but technically, the law against it is still on the books. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/13 "2020-04-26T17:41:39Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Federal law mentions state governments as well. > > Does this mean the right to revolution in New Hampshire’s state constitution (Article 10) is null and void? The federal provision strikes me as an implementation of the federal guarantee of republican government, set out in [Article IV, s. 4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Four_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_4:_Obligations_of_the_United_States): > [@People of the United States](#): > > SECTION 4. **The United States** shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and **shall protect each of them** against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) **against domestic Violence.** If there’s a conflict between the federal Constitution (and laws adopted under it) and the state Constitution, then the state Constitution gives way under A[rticle VI (the Supremacy clause)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Text), which expressly refers to state constitutions: > [@](#): > > This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, **any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding**. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/14 "2020-04-26T18:11:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “Call to” != “engage in” in my non-lawyer English. But the courts may feel otherwise. Does anyone know? See post #6 ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/15 "2020-04-26T19:12:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > But is it illegal to advocate the overthrow of the US government? Well, if ‘abolish’ includes 'overthrow there is this: > [@The Declaration of Independence](#): > > A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/16 "2020-04-26T19:47:08Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Well, if ‘abolish’ includes 'overthrow there is this: The DoI, while a critical document, isn’t part of the US legal system. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/17 "2020-04-26T20:05:54Z")
The code quoted in post #6 says it is illegal to advocate the destruction of the government “by force or violence.” So apparently it is legal to advocate overthrowing the government using peaceful resistance? That’s kind of interesting to think about. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/18 "2020-04-26T20:08:58Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Well, if ‘abolish’ includes 'overthrow there is this: The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document. It is a revolutionary manifesto establishing the position of a minority of citizens in the American colonies. It was very much a PR document that sought to convince other citizens to join the cause. It had some success in that role by convincing those closest to supporting the cause to join. It failed with a number who remained generally neutral throughout. It also failed with another chunk of the populace. They were only convinced by a combination of direct violence against them and foreign support for their cause being withdrawn. While many of the principles from that document guided the government that the winners formed. We should not mistake a key influencing document in the formation of the government for the actual constitutional law it influenced. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/19 "2020-04-26T20:13:55Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > So apparently it is legal to advocate overthrowing the government using peaceful resistance? That’s kind of interesting to think about. Otherwise elections would be a bit tricky. We effectively overthrow our current federal government every 2 years. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603/20 "2020-04-26T20:56:45Z")
The American revolutions understood that what they were doing was illegal. That’s why they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. It’s also why Ben Franklin said, “Gentlemen, if we don’t hang together we shall most assuredly hang separately.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-call-to-preform-a-military-coup-illegal/852603.md?page=2)