# Is a clerk/barkeep responsible if they sell beer to someone with a realistic fake ID? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484 "2007-05-10T01:18:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/1 "2007-05-10T01:18:07Z")
Or cigarettes. Or allow them to vote :). I mean, a very realisitc ID, and they can prove that they asked the person and the person showed them the ID. An obvious fake I can see they would be, or a real license that clearly is not the person pictured, but in these times I would guess reliastic fakes are out there. Anyone know, or had this experience? ---
**Author:** ![xiix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/d6d6ee/32.png) [@xiix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xiix)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/2 "2007-05-10T01:20:38Z")
If there is no negligent intent, there is no crime. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/3 "2007-05-10T01:22:01Z")
[QUOTE=xiix] If there is no negligent intent, there is no crime. [/QUOTE] You might not go to jail, but you will probably hear harsh words and maybe a penalty from the state liquor control authority. ---
**Author:** ![Bender44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Bender44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bender44)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/4 "2007-05-10T02:50:09Z")
Depends on the state I would imagine, but I have to say you are. Strict liability statutes are generally disfavored, except in cases of minors. Strict liability statutes doesn’t require intent. Kind of like statutory rape. Even if the girl told you she was above the age of majority, you’re still criminally liable. Its not at all fair, but the criminal justice system is built for fairness. So if you get caught selling alcohol to any minor, despite that minor having the best fake ID in the world, you’re still gonna be in some sort of trouble. Its one of the costs of owning a bar. ---
**Author:** ![JayRx1981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@JayRx1981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JayRx1981)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/5 "2007-05-10T04:36:12Z")
IANA Lawyer, but… Under Ohio law, at least, any permit holder who made a good faith effort at the time of sale to verify a person’s age by asking for valid ID and checking it against the person’s appearance and for obvious signs of tampering, and had reason to believe the person buying was of legal age is protected from prosecution, according to the ORC in section 4301.639. I suspect it’s similar for most states (though I could be wrong). ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/6 "2007-05-10T04:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=xiix] If there is no negligent intent, there is no crime. [/QUOTE] This sounds really, really attractive to many people. It sounds fair. It sounds like justice. Unfortunately, it’s also wrong. There are crimes called ‘strict liability offenses’ where the accused’s state of mind is completely irrelevant. If the defense even raises the issue, the trial is thrown and the accused is retried. Which offenses are strict liability is, so far as I can tell, completely random: Statutory rape is but forcible rape is not. Murder in any form is not, so far as I’m aware of. The question here is whether selling liquor to a minor is. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/7 "2007-05-10T04:56:48Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth] …Statutory rape is but forcible rape is not. Murder in any form is not, so far as I’m aware of. The question here is whether selling liquor to a minor is. [/QUOTE] What about child pornography? Traci Lords was able to fool the federal government into thinking she was of age and obtained a real passport. ---
**Author:** ![Capa84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8edcca/32.png) [@Capa84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capa84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/8 "2007-05-10T05:23:04Z")
There is a device out now for situations like this-the clerk takes the ID, drops it in this slot, and it is a high resolution scanner that scans the ID, then sends it to a multiplexer which overlays it in a particular location on the security camera footage being streamed from the cash register. Pretty much it’s sole use is to protect the owner and clerk in this instance. The owner is further protected by knowing that the clerks will not play games, since he can review if they are cheating the system for buddies, or not honestly checking the IDs. ---
**Author:** ![Bender44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Bender44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bender44)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/9 "2007-05-10T11:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] What about child pornography? Traci Lords was able to fool the federal government into thinking she was of age and obtained a real passport. [/QUOTE] It depends on how the statute is written, but again, in cases of minors, strict liability usually applies. I suppose in the Traci Lords case, the accused could bring up a legitimate mistake defense which would be relevant at sentencing. But as far as the trial, all the prosecution has to prove is that the pictures/movies were taken and the subject was a minor. It doesn’t matter what Traci Lords did to fool them. She was a minor and pornographic movies were made of her. Just remember, all thats needed in strict liability is the act. No intent needed. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/10 "2007-05-10T13:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bender44] It depends on how the statute is written, but again, in cases of minors, strict liability usually applies. I suppose in the Traci Lords case, the accused could bring up a legitimate mistake defense which would be relevant at sentencing. But as far as the trial, all the prosecution has to prove is that the pictures/movies were taken and the subject was a minor. It doesn’t matter what Traci Lords did to fool them. She was a minor and pornographic movies were made of her. Just remember, all thats needed in strict liability is the act. No intent needed. [/QUOTE] I don’t know this specifics on her, but what if she or someone else secured the birth certificate of an older sister who died at six months, and then used that to get a real govt/state issued passport and license. The pornographer or the beer seller does confirm the documents she shows are real, even though they were obtained fradulently. Surely in this case they would not be liable? ---
**Author:** ![Bender44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Bender44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bender44)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/11 "2007-05-10T16:41:50Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] I don’t know this specifics on her, but what if she or someone else secured the birth certificate of an older sister who died at six months, and then used that to get a real govt/state issued passport and license. The pornographer or the beer seller does confirm the documents she shows are real, even though they were obtained fradulently. Surely in this case they would not be liable? [/QUOTE] Well shoot, can’t say I know the answer to that one. The case would probably have to go before a judge and he could dismiss the case because of the fraud. This is one of the reasons strict liability statutes are generally disfavored.. Now that I look at my Crim law notes I see that they would probably rely on mistake in fact defense, but it may not be successful "Mistake in Fact-this form of mistake arises when the defendant bases her conduct on erroneous factual belief constituting a misperception of reality. A mistake in fact can have the effect of negating the mens rea in either specific or general intent crimes,\*\* (but not in strict liability “public welfare” offenses, which have no mens rea.) \*\* So after all that, my answer is I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/12 "2007-05-29T16:23:35Z")
What offends people’s sensibilities is that someone who does everything right, plays by the rules, and tries damned hard to live a good, clean life could get utterly ruined and branded a child rapist by one mistake. It is equivalent to a witch trial, where the only defense was to drown when thrown into a river. Is a judge allowed to exercise any judgment at all in cases like these? I’m sure lawyers around here would stand up and scream if I suggested jury nullification, but that honestly seems the only possible way to achieve justice in some cases. (Trying to change the law seems unlikely to work. The opposition need only say “Why are you for child rape?” and your arguments would be lost in the backwash.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/13 "2007-05-29T16:37:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Which offenses are strict liability is, so far as I can tell, completely random: Statutory rape is but forcible rape is not. In what sense could the question of strict liability be applicable to forcible rape? “Your Honor, I didn’t know I was holding a knife to her throat at the time.”? ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/14 "2007-05-29T17:03:15Z")
In my Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission class, they told us that the only defensible proof of age was a valid Texas driver’s license, or ID. IOW, if the ID is good and real and valid and issued by the state and the buyer was in fact a minor, you are in the clear. If you accept, say, a passport as proof of age and it turns out that the individual is under 21, you are liable. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/15 "2007-05-29T20:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] In what sense could the question of strict liability be applicable to forcible rape? “Your Honor, I didn’t know I was holding a knife to her throat at the time.”? [/QUOTE] Think of S&M play that one party later regrets. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/16 "2007-05-29T21:09:01Z")
More on Texas: > [@](#): > > Texas Alcohol & Beverage Code Sec. 106.03. SALE TO MINORS > (a) A person commits an offense if with criminal negligence he sells an alcoholic beverage to a minor. > (b) A person who sells a minor an alcoholic beverage does not commit an offense if the minor falsely represents himself to be 21 years old or older by displaying an apparently valid Texas driver’s license or an identification card issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety, containing a physical description consistent with his appearance for the purpose of inducing the person to sell him an alcoholic beverage. > (c) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. > (d) Subsection (b) does not apply to a person who accesses electronically readable information under Section 109.61 that identifies a driver’s license or identification certificate as invalid. A falsified passport of DL from another state wouldn’t constitute an automatic defense as would a falsified Texas DL, but it’s still something you could (and should) argue to a jury. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-clerk-barkeep-responsible-if-they-sell-beer-to-someone-with-a-realistic-fake-id/403484/17 "2007-05-29T21:15:36Z")
[QUOTE=xiix] If there is no negligent intent, there is no crime. [/QUOTE] negligent… intent 😕 Those two words just don’t go together, my friend. I was looking for a good-faith defense allowance in California, but couldn’t find one. What I did find, however, was one very confusing statute: > [@](#): > > BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE > SECTION 25658. > … > (d) Any on-sale licensee who knowingly permits a person under the > age of 21 years to consume any alcoholic beverage in the on-sale > premises, whether or not the licensee has knowledge that the person > is under the age of 21 years, is guilty of a misdemeanor. Huh? I think it means you can’t get off by _not_ checking IDs and say you didn’t _know_ they were under-age, but couldn’t it be worded better?