# Is a desire to secede from a country a sign of patriotism? Ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774 "2012-11-21T22:06:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774/21 "2012-11-22T04:19:36Z")
I would say that the current “crop” of people wishing to secede are as patriotic (or not) as the poster on this MB who advocated for same in 2004. AFAICT, there are maybe one or two posters here who are advocating secession now. If I have time over the weekend, I’ll try and get an estimate of how man posters we had doing this in 2004. We can then see how many of them are still active members. It’s much more fruitful debating the motive of people who can actually defend themselves than the motives of some unidentified people not here to defend their own position. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774/22 "2012-11-22T04:21:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And I answered you. Is a desire to secede from a country ever a sign of patriotism? Of course…otherwise we wouldn’t have a country here (assuming you are from the US). It all depends on whether you succeed or fail as to whether you were a patriot or a traitor, in the end…but the example of the colonies seceding from the UK alone means that ‘ever’ has already happened. Unless you don’t think the FF’s were patriotic. I think the question is supposed to be whether secession can be a form of patriotism to the country you’re seceding from. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774/23 "2012-11-22T04:23:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, conceivably their goal might be to preserve life as they knew it in the USA before a recent series of political changes started changing life dramatically in the USA, i.e. the President orders the Secret Service to shoot all members of Congress… Yeah, seconded. You can be patriotic to your conception of a country before some recent drastic changes. If a part of Germany in the 1930s wanted to secede in an attempt to keep the Weimar Republic and resist Nazism, that would count as patriotic to Germany (or, the Weimar version of Germany) in my book. More to the point, does it really _matter_? Whether it’s patriotic or not doesn’t change the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of a secession movement. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774/24 "2012-11-22T04:28:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the question is supposed to be whether secession can be a form of patriotism to the country you’re seceding from. Is it supposed to be? If you secede then you obviously have a major problem with the country you are planning to secede from…otherwise, why secede?? So, if that’s the question, then no…it’s not patriotic to the country you are seceding from. The British certainly took umbrage over those damned rebels, and hanged quite a few of them. But the rebels didn’t want to be part of the empire anymore, so to themselves they were patriots…and, since they won, they get to call themselves whatever they like. While the Scots during the '45 lost…so, they got the axe, and were branded as traitors. C’est la vie…fortunes of war (and it helps that we had the French helping us and all that ocean in-between us and the Brits ;)). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774/25 "2012-11-23T08:44:59Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > But there is a more serious side to this, namely is it ever patriotic to leave a country? Can someone love their country so much legitimately and can that country fall so far from the things that made those people love it that leaving it is actually the ultimate expression of patriotism? You mention WWII, and it’s a good example to show that people can come to different conclusions on this issue. For instance, the king of Denmark stayed in his country while the king of Norway went into exike. Neither has been accused of not being a patriot. At the contrary, both have been considered as symbols of national resistance against Nazism. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774/26 "2012-11-23T09:06:25Z")
No, if a true patriot thinks the government of his or her country has been taken over by people who are out to harm the country, the proper response is not to secede (not permanently, anyway) but to seek to overthrow the false rulers and restore the country to its proper state of rule. If you actually love the United States, you will not act so as to destroy it, no matter how badly or illegitimately you think it is being ruled. I suppose, in a US context, advocating secession would be consistent with being a patriot of your _state_, but you would not be acting patriotically towards the USA. Mind you, personally I do not think patriotism is much of a virtue anyway. The world would be a better place if there were no patriots anywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-desire-to-secede-from-a-country-a-sign-of-patriotism-ever/641774.md?page=1)