# Is a dog sniff at the front door a search?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 30, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341 "2012-09-30T23:38:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/121 "2012-10-05T15:53:01Z")
> [@simster](#):
>
> A car on a public road - already stopped for something else - in which case teh officer ‘detected’ PC to call for a dog to be brought to the scene - is a far different thing than taking a dog to a private address without any information ahead of time.
The officer doesn’t need probable cause to have a dog sniff your car during a traffic stop. He can do a dog sniff because he feels like it, or because the last four numbers of your license plate sum to a prime number.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/122 "2012-10-05T15:53:59Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> Then Stevens’ argument hinges on a premise which is factually untrue: that a sniffer dog will detect nothing except illegal drugs.
Good, at least this is a relevant argument.
So spell it out. How does the dog reveal to his handler something other than the dog’s guess that there is contraband inside? A special bark?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/123 "2012-10-05T15:54:31Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> So your position is that the presence of equipment that reveals \*less \*private information than the officer’s nose, but more accurately detects contraband, transforms it into a search? Why is that so, **Czarcasm**?
False premise that i shouldn’t have let you get away with. If the dog’s nose revealed less information than the officer’s nose, _they wouldn’t be using drug-sniffing dogs in the first place._
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/124 "2012-10-05T15:54:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> They wave it at your front door and it tells them if a murderer is inside, and nothing else. Under what circumstances should they be permitted to use this device?
Are they waving it at my door from the curb, or are they standing on MY property while searching through my home for a murderer?
If you’re standing on my property, I think you need my permission to set up equipment to search my house. The fact that you might be able to set up and turn it on before I get a chance to tell you to leave is beside the point.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/125 "2012-10-05T15:55:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> You understand, though, that the officer could walk up to your door without a dog, but with the intent to see if any contraband was visible in your living room when you open the door… right?
yep - but he cant ‘see’ or ‘smell’ into my closet or basement without a warrant.
A dog could. (well, he could smell).
Therefore the tool makes ‘plane sight’ a diffferent question.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/126 "2012-10-05T15:55:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> False premise that i shouldn’t have let you get away with. If the dog’s nose revealed less information than the officer’s nose, _they wouldn’t be using drug-sniffing dogs in the first place._
Less \*private \*information, unless you want to contend that you have a right to privacy with respect to contraband. That’s the premise I’ve been trying to focus you on for two pages now.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/127 "2012-10-05T15:56:44Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> Are they waving it at my door from the curb, or are they standing on MY property while searching through my home for a murderer?
>
> If you’re standing on my property, I think you need my permission to set up equipment to search my house. The fact that you might be able to set up and turn it on before I get a chance to tell you to leave is beside the point.
Well, let’s take it one step at a time. Is your position that it’s not a search if conducted from the public sidewalk?
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/128 "2012-10-05T15:57:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> The officer doesn’t need probable cause to have a dog sniff your car during a traffic stop. He can do a dog sniff because he feels like it, or because the last four numbers of your license plate sum to a prime number.
Thats why I put detects in quotes - I fully understand that - but at some point the officer that is repeatedly on fishing expeditions will have to explain himself to someone. I (would like to) believe that on average, the calling of a drug dog to a traffic stop has some real detective work behind it.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/129 "2012-10-05T15:59:03Z")
I think that intuition has merit. The difficulty would be in crafting a (new) rule that distinguishes fishing expeditions from legitimate investigation. I think that’s a very tall order.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/130 "2012-10-05T15:59:54Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Less \*private \*information, unless you want to contend that you have a right to privacy with respect to contraband. That’s the premise I’ve been trying to focus you on for two pages now.
No-that’s the premise you’ve been trying to turn the conversation towards for two pages now. For the job at hand, sniffing out drugs, in what way is a police officer’s nose superior to a police dog’s nose?
Edited to add: I contend that I have a right to privacy, _period_. If you think I have contraband, you better have damn good reason to do something about it before you invade that privacy.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/131 "2012-10-05T16:01:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Well, let’s take it one step at a time. Is your position that it’s not a search if conducted from the public sidewalk?
Not speaking for him - but on the ‘public’ sidewalk is a far cry from on ‘private’ property - or do you not agree with that?
Secondly - what does the ‘public’ search provide? Probable Cause to take it to the next level.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/132 "2012-10-05T16:02:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> I think that intuition has merit. The difficulty would be in crafting a (new) rule that distinguishes fishing expeditions from legitimate investigation. I think that’s a very tall order.
Not really - I see it as enforcing existing rules that say “put down your intuition into words and have a judge sign off on it”.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/133 "2012-10-05T16:02:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> For the job at hand, sniffing out drugs, in what way is a police officer’s nose superior to a police dog’s nose?
It’s not superior.
My position is that you’re not thinking carefully enough about this. Your intuition is based on sensory-enhancing technology that not only enhances the ability to find contraband, but also enhances the ability to see private stuff. But that intuition doesn’t apply to drug dogs.
If I’m wrong, tell me how. Why do you think the effectiveness of discovering contraband is relevant to the privacy inquiry?
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/134 "2012-10-05T16:05:22Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Well, let’s take it one step at a time. Is your position that it’s not a search if conducted from the public sidewalk?
It’s a search regardless of where it comes from. The idea that the drug sniffing dog searching a car on the side of the road isn’t “searching” is a silly legal fiction. The search may not violate anyone’s right to privacy, but it’s a search.
If they are conducting the search from the sidewalk, I don’t have any right to dictate what happens there. I can’t tell the dog not to breathe, I can’t tell the officer to not let the dog search. Even if I was standing right there. If that search legitimately leads them to my front door, they have appropriate cause to continue the search. Imagine a tracking dog searching for a lost child, they follow the trail to my front door, the trail starts elsewhere, I can’t tell them they’re not allowed to search.
If a cop is standing on my porch, with no existing cause, I can tell him to get off my property, and that has weight behind it.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/135 "2012-10-05T16:07:10Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> So spell it out. How does the dog reveal to his handler something other than the dog’s guess that there is contraband inside? A special bark?
By producing false positives. The police cannot use their drug-or-steak detector to search your house under the pretense that it will only detect drugs.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/136 "2012-10-05T16:08:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#):
>
> The search may not violate anyone’s right to privacy, but it’s a search.
Ok. So long as we’re clear that we’re no longer talking about established Fourth Amendment law, we can pursue this line of thought.
If “search” is to be defined not by the violation of privacy, but instead by the fact that the officer is seeking to discovery criminal behavior, does an officer need a warrant to sit on a building to watch a drug corner with binoculars? Why or why not?
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/137 "2012-10-05T16:09:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> By producing false positives. The police cannot use their drug-or-steak detector to search your house under the pretense that it will only detect drugs.
See post #33. Whether the dog’s alert should establish probable cause is a separate question from whether the sniff is a search.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/138 "2012-10-05T16:18:22Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> Ok. So long as we’re clear that we’re no longer talking about established Fourth Amendment law, we can pursue this line of thought.
>
> If “search” is to be defined not by the violation of privacy, but instead by the fact that the officer is seeking to discovery criminal behavior, does an officer need a warrant to sit on a building to watch a drug corner with binoculars? Why or why not?
If there were police dogs that could sniff out drugs from a building across the street, I’d have no problem with that being done without a warrant.
Why do your arguments seem like a basic “bait and switch”? We are talking about searches being done _on private property_, but you are constantly trying to switch the subject to searches _on public property_. It is very distracting.
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### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/139 "2012-10-05T16:20:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#):
>
> If “search” is to be defined not by the violation of privacy, but instead by the fact that the officer is seeking to discovery criminal behavior, does an officer need a warrant to sit on a building to watch a drug corner with binoculars? Why or why not?
I dunno, is he sitting on my fucking front porch with the binoculars? If he is, then I’m gonna want to look at that warrant, thanks.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-dog-sniff-at-the-front-door-a-search/636341/140 "2012-10-05T16:22:06Z")
**Czarcasm** : That’s really not fair, you just don’t understand how legal hypotheticals work (which is fine, there’s no reason you should, but you’ll find that the Supreme Court will do exactly what I’m doing right now).
When there are several factors that affect your reasoning about a given situation, a systemic approach holds some of them constant while testing others. I’m trying to determine what you think is not a search, and what is different that makes this a search. To do so, I’m asking about it piece-by-piece. If you thought that it was not a search to do it from the public sidewalk, then we can isolate the fact that it occurs on the porch. If you thought it was still a search from the sidewalk, then I’d know we have a broader dispute.
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