# Is a Hogwarts education deficient? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949 "2003-06-24T04:43:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/21 "2003-06-25T15:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spoons \* > \*\*There is some interaction between the Muggle world and the Wizard world, although it may be quite tacit. … And it’s either Seamus or Dean who keeps on putting up posters supporting Muggle soccer teams. \*\* Yes, but some of their classmates have absolutely no idea what football is, or that people in mundane posters don’t move. They may be getting educated, but they’re sadly missing out on a lot of the culture. Like Mr. Weasley not understanding the significance of a rubber duck… it’s a freakin’ TOY, for Christ’s sake! How hard is that to figure out? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/22 "2003-06-25T16:18:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ISiddiqui \* > \*\*I think this is the key. Hogwarts is like a technical institute in magic. Then when they get out, they find jobs and get on the job trainings, which will help them in whatever field they are in. It’s basically a trade school which could care less about math and art. \*\* This strikes me as a bit of a problem if Hogwarts is the _only_ wizard school in the UK. Perhaps everyone doesn’t need to study art, or language, or higher math, or politics, but shouldn’t these subjects be available _somewhere_ in the wizard world to those who might find them interesting or useful? Perhaps some wizards attend Muggle universities, although given the general lack of knowledge about the Muggle world in the wizard community I doubt this is common. Perhaps by the end of the series the barriers between the Muggle and wizard worlds will be coming down. I can easily imagine Muggles and wizards having to join forces against Voldemort. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/23 "2003-06-25T20:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > No, I don’t accept that. It seems that this would make things far easier - not so much to learn a specific trick like “wave your wand like so and say ‘Wingardium Leviosa’ to levitate something”, but to figure out new techniques. And of course, knowing the theory behind something doesn’t make it any harder to learn how to do it. Possible, but consider that just about everything that wizards do is impossible according to what Muggles consider to be proven science. Perhaps the wizarding world knows that Muggle science is wrong, but doesn’t know exactly why? If that was the case, you wouldn’t want to teach them our science, because our science directly contradicts what they know to be reality. But they can’t teach the "real"sciences, because they just don’t know them. > [@](#): > > This strikes me as a bit of a problem if Hogwarts is the only wizard school in the UK. Perhaps everyone doesn’t need to study art, or language, or higher math, or politics, but shouldn’t these subjects be available somewhere in the wizard world to those who might find them interesting or useful? Perhaps some wizards attend Muggle universities, although given the general lack of knowledge about the Muggle world in the wizard community I doubt this is common. I recall reading in book 4 that Hogwarts isn’t the _only_ wizarding school in England, it’s just the most prestigious. Something to the effect of the Tri-Wizard Tournament is organized by the most prestigious school in each of their respective nations (England, France, and I can’t remember the third). My own take on the matter is that the courses not covered are just considered less valuable in the wizard world. Perhaps wizards don’t value literature, art, or the like as much as Muggles. Science isn’t taught for reasons given above, and math, to the extent it’s needed, is covered prior to attending a wizarding school. Really, if you don’t use science, the need for advanced mathematics is greatly reduced. And as someone else mentioned, this over-reliance of wizardry in lieu of other subjects could explain why the wizard community is such a mess. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/24 "2003-06-25T20:39:53Z")
Posted by **ElJeffe:** > [@](#): > > Perhaps the wizarding world knows that Muggle science is wrong, but doesn’t know exactly why? If that was the case, you wouldn’t want to teach them our science, because our science directly contradicts what they know to be reality. But they can’t teach the "real"sciences, because they just don’t know them. Not so. In a world such as Rowling’s, where magic works but Muggle technology also works, Muggle science obviously is **not** wrong, merely incomplete. There are certain phenomena and forces in the universe, falling under the general heading of “magic,” of which Muggle scientists are ignorant; but these scientists still are perfectly correct when they describe the motions of heavenly bodies or the chemical processes of living organisms. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/25 "2003-06-25T20:53:43Z")
Excellent point, **BrainGlutton**. We still teach Newtonian physics, even though they’re technically “wrong”, because they’re a close approximation, and still work. I guess wizards could do the same. My guess, then, is that Rowlings eschews normal classes at Hogwarts simply to make the school seem more exotic. “Defense Against the Dark Arts” certainly sounds much cooler than “Biology”. Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/26 "2003-06-26T02:37:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElJeffe \* > \*\*I recall reading in book 4 that Hogwarts isn’t the _only_ wizarding school in England, it’s just the most prestigious. Something to the effect of the Tri-Wizard Tournament is organized by the most prestigious school in each of their respective nations (England, France, and I can’t remember the third). \*\* Nitpick: The third nation is never mentioned, but it is somewhere cold as the students dress in a lot of furs. I assumed Russia, but it could be Canada or Alaska or something. As for Fleur’s school, they just speak with French accents. They could be from Beligum or the castle from the end of Monty Phtyon and the Grail for that matter. The only school who’s country is mentioned is Hogwarts in the “wilds” of England. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/27 "2003-06-26T15:49:24Z")
I though the third school was Bulgarian, but that may be just cause Krum is from Bulgaria (or played in their Quidditch team, at least). ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/28 "2003-06-26T15:55:56Z")
Really? I thought it was German, but attracted Eastern Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/29 "2003-06-26T16:45:46Z")
I figured -very- northern Scotland or Scandinavia. Someplace near the North Sea. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/30 "2003-06-26T16:47:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sinungaling \* > \*\*Really? I thought it was German, but attracted Eastern Europeans. \*\* The name “Durmstrang” is obviously a derivative of the German expression “Sturm und drang” so I’d be inclined to agree. But I suppose that’s not really conclusive evidence. It seems likely enough that the wizard community has its own states that do not correspond to Muggle nations. To wizards, much of northern Europe might be considered one country, and Durmstrang is their local school. If that’s the case, Durmstrang could even be someplace like Iceland. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/31 "2003-06-26T19:17:06Z")
Addendum: for purposes of Quidditch teams, the wizard world does seem to divide itself up according to Muggle nations, but it is unclear whether the wizard government and school districts follow the same system. Since there are far fewer wizards than Muggles, it would make sense if they had states that covered a larger territory. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/32 "2003-06-26T20:15:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\* It seems likely enough that the wizard community has its own states that do not correspond to Muggle nations. To wizards, much of northern Europe might be considered one country, and Durmstrang is their local school. If that’s the case, Durmstrang could even be someplace like Iceland. \*\* It doesn’t seem so. Of course, all we really know about is the UK, but in addition to Quidditch teams being Muggle nation specific, the governing body of the English and Scottish wizarding world is the Ministry of Magic, which is part of the government of the UK. Also, in the new book: The Ministry of Magic contains the offices of Britain’s representatives to international wizardry organizations. So, it seems like, in the UK at least, muggle and wizard boundries are the same. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/33 "2003-06-27T02:28:18Z")
About literature not being taught–I always assumed it was because the wizarding world is essentially medieval, before fictional narrative was invented–yes, they had lots of great stories, but they were generally told in earnest. Okay. A specialist in medieval literature may now shoot me down, but that’s what _I_ always thought. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949/34 "2003-06-27T03:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*It doesn’t seem so. Of course, all we really know about is the UK, but in addition to Quidditch teams being Muggle nation specific, the governing body of the English and Scottish wizarding world is the Ministry of Magic, which is part of the government of the UK. > \*\* Is it? The MoM can obviously get in contact with and cooperate with the British Muggle government when it needs to, but I’ve seen nothing in books 1-4 to indicate that the MoM is _part_ of the government of the United Kingdom. It seems to operate independantly. Again, I haven’t read _Order of the Phoenix_, so if things are clarified there I don’t know about it yet. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So, it seems like, in the UK at least, muggle and wizard boundries are the same. \*\* I think this does seem true for the British Isles, but this may be for geographical reasons as much as anything else. There’s a clear natural boundary between the British Isles and continental Europe, but the boundaries between many nations are there for purely political reasons…_Muggle_ political reasons. Since wizards don’t have to muck about with Muggle passports and borderguards their community is probably unaffected by things like, say, the Berlin Wall. Would wizards living in Germany suddenly decide to divide themselves into a politically distinct East and West just because the Muggles thought it was a good idea, and reunite the minute the Muggles decided that was what they wanted to do instead? That seems inconsistent with a group that doesn’t even understand how to use the postal service. Of course, the political boundaries of the wizard world may have very little to do with their “school districts”. Hogwarts probably predates the MoM by centuries, and the relationship between them is rather shakey. The same is probably true of many other schools and their respective local governments. So even if the wizard world recognizes Austria and Germany as distinct states just as in the Muggle world, there’s no reason why the Durmstrang district couldn’t encompass both countries and beyond. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-hogwarts-education-deficient/183949.md?page=1)