# Is a lot of what we assume about the "Dark Ages" incorrect? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480 "2008-09-13T20:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/21 "2008-09-15T03:57:21Z")
I don’t have a cite, but I distinctly recall being told in one university history class about a new type of plow (or “plough,” for all you Brits) developed around 1000 that vastly improved crop yields and helped lead to the overall better conditions in the second half of the Middle Ages over the first half. Anyone know about that? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/22 "2008-09-15T04:21:07Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I don’t have a cite, but I distinctly recall being told in one university history class about a new type of plow (or “plough,” for all you Brits) developed around 1000 that vastly improved crop yields and helped lead to the overall better conditions in the second half of the Middle Ages over the first half. Anyone know about that? I think you’re talking about the wheeled plough, which allowed the use of a metal or metal-reinforced mouldboard; that was invented in the fifth or sixth century, though. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/23 "2008-09-15T04:45:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you’re talking about the wheeled plough, which allowed the use of a metal or metal-reinforced mouldboard; that was invented in the fifth or sixth century, though. No, I’m sure that’s not it. The one I’m remembering was definitely around the year 1000, and there was something about the blade itself. A double blade, or a different angle, something, but the difference was in the blade. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/24 "2008-09-15T05:47:28Z")
When was the rigid ox collar developed? I know for a time, oxen weren’t much more efficient at pulling plows than slaves - they could provide about 5 times the pulling energy, but ate about 5 times as much. They were stronger than they could pull, because the harnesses would pull against the neck and cut off circulation/breathing if the oxen pulled as hard as they could. Someone came up with the idea of a rigid, wooden ox collar that could not constrict the ox’s neck, and suddenly the oxen could pull about 10 times as much as a human, making them twice as efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/25 "2008-09-15T10:36:32Z")
This book is due out in 2 or 3 weeks; I’ve not seen it mentioned above: [The Time-traveller’s Guide to Medieval England: A Handbook for Visitors to the Fourteenth Century](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-travellers-Guide-Medieval-England-Fourteenth/dp/0224079948/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1221474773&sr=11-1) (Amazon UK link) I have a copy on order… ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/26 "2008-09-15T13:34:06Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Does Tuchman go back far enough? _A Distant Mirror_ covers only the 14th century. Indeed, the subtitle of the book is _The Calamitous 14th Century_. It is one of my favorite books. Though perhaps my fondness is influenced by the fact that it was the first book I ever read on the topic of the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/27 "2008-09-15T13:50:02Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > I don’t have an answer, but was going to start a very similar thread, so I would like to add this: > > What good inventions or other societal accomplishments (art, philosophy, etc) come from the Dark Ages? > > (if you don’t mind the piggyback) As mentioned, the heavy plow and the horse collar were BIG inventions of the dark ages. Together, they increased the productivity of farmers significantly. There were other significant technological improvements in the middle ages, especially in agriculture, but it’s been too long since I read up about them specifically. Also, improved farming practices tended not to be written about as much as knights and battles. So many improvements went under the radar of Rennaissance historians. It’s the Renaissance historians we can blame for the “Dark Ages” thing. In a wave of self-congratulatory redefinition, they described everything that happened after the Romans and before themselves as being barbaric, ignorant, and uncultured. They just plain dismissed everything from that time period as beneath their self-evidently enlightened culture. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/28 "2008-09-15T13:55:18Z")
A classic book son the middle ages: “Autumn of the Middle Ages” by Dutch historian Huizinga; he also made an abridged version of the book. [http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0486404439/ref=dp\_top\_cm\_cr\_acr\_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1](http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0486404439/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/29 "2008-09-15T15:03:07Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Not that I buy into the idea of the Dark Ages, but Averroes and Avicenna weren’t Europeans; as far as I know Averroes was born in Cordoba, which is in (then Muslim) Spain, so he was European. Avicenna wasn’t born in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/30 "2008-09-15T15:09:00Z")
Here’s a technological timeline of the middle ages: [http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/Timeline.html](http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/tekpages/Timeline.html) Horizonal looms, artesian wells, percussion drilling, glass mirrors, spectacles, paper, soap, are all some of the inventions. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/31 "2008-09-16T02:40:15Z")
> [@Algernon](#): > > _A Distant Mirror_ covers only the 14th century. Indeed, the subtitle of the book is _The Calamitous 14th Century_. > > It is one of my favorite books. Though perhaps my fondness is influenced by the fact that it was the first book I ever read on the topic of the Middle Ages. And speaking of the 14th century, I also have on my shelf _The Fourteenth Century: 1307-1399_, by May McKisack, which I found to be good. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/32 "2008-09-16T02:50:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Averroes was born in Cordoba, which is in (then Muslim) Spain, so he was European. Good point. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/33 "2008-09-16T02:58:39Z")
The angle of this thread isn’t at all what I expected. I’d think that popular conceptions about the Middle Ages are more likely to be over-romanticized (basically the Victorian version of the Middle Ages) than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/34 "2008-09-16T04:00:10Z")
The Knights Templar are worth looking at for their multi-national quasi-corporate organization. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/35 "2008-09-16T04:09:23Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The Knights Templar are worth looking at for their multi-national quasi-corporate organization. Aren’t they the ones who invented the modern checking system? People traveling to the Holy Land could leave their money with the Templars (I think it was them) and receive a voucher to be presented to Templar headquarters in the Middle east, where they would give the guy his money. They were the ones, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/36 "2008-09-16T04:10:45Z")
Yes. Here we go, from the Wiki page on the Knights Templar: [Knights Templar - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar) > [@](#): > > Accumulating wealth in this manner throughout Christendom and the Outremer, the Order in 1150 began generating letters of credit for pilgrims journeying to the Holy Land: pilgrims deposited their valuables with a local Templar preceptory before embarking, received an encrypted document indicating the value of their deposit, then used that document upon arrival in the Holy Land to retrieve their funds. This innovative arrangement was an early form of banking, and may have been the first formal system to support the use of cheques; it improved the safety of pilgrims by making them less attractive targets for thieves, and also contributed to the Templar coffers.[4][14] > > Based on this mix of donations and business dealing, the Templars established financial networks across the whole of Christendom. They acquired large tracts of land, both in Europe and the Middle East; they bought and managed farms and vineyards; they built churches and castles; they were involved in manufacturing, import and export; they had their own fleet of ships; and at one point they even owned the entire island of Cyprus. The Order of the Knights Templar arguably qualifies as the world’s first multinational corporation.[13] ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/37 "2008-09-16T08:06:11Z")
> [@WoodenTaco](#): > > Thatched roofing was used for literally thousands of years; the Ordinance of 1212 that outlawed construction of thatched roofs in London and ordered shingled roofs was hugely important in reducing the number of fires. That was a pretty big deal at the time, My understanding that tiled roofs (far superior to thatch or shingles) was relatively common during the Roman era - this would seem to be more a case of painstakingly upgrading to something that was almost as good as things were a thousand years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/38 "2008-09-16T08:17:12Z")
It sounds to me like, before speaking about “dark ages,” we should start by defining the term. As **Hypno-Toad** pointed out, the term was born as a sort of propaganda of Renaissance scholars for themselves… scholars who were quite ignorant about the Classical period they so loved (ignorant doesn’t mean dumb, remember, just uninformed, and they were severely so) and who had gotten much of their information about it through the work of dedicated scholars from those “dark” times. The Translators School that Fernando el Sabio (Ferdinand the Wise) of Castilla founded in Toledo was initially, as its name indicates, a school for copiers and translators, but even during his own reign became a center for all kind of knowledge. Anybody who’s had to get a highly-technical document translated can tell you that the best person to do it will most likely be, not someone with a diploma in translation, but a technician who happens to be bilingual; the school of translators had doctors, herbalists, astronomers… Excluding “the Muslim world,” while a common enough notion, sounds a bit, uh, silly from where I grew up, a town less than 100m away from France whose cathedral includes parts that used to be the Sinagogue and the Mosque and which was ruled by a Jewish family (the Mussas or Muza) on behalf of the Muslim governor of Saragossa, then ruled by the same Jewish family on behalf of the Navarrese King (most of whom have been Christian thank you much, but there was one who converted to Islam). The town where I was born, about 60m north, used to be three towns: one populated mostly by “Franks” (immigrants from Northern Europe and their descendants), two by locals with more-Basque customs and with more-Goth-and-Roman customs. This kind of soup is found throughout Spain and Portugal as soon as you scratch the surface a little bit. Back then as now, there were such things as “valued professionals who got hired abroad”: masons and artists moved from place to place, monks might move between monasteries based on the needs of their Order. ---
**Author:** ![ShakWave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@ShakWave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShakWave)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/39 "2008-09-16T09:09:10Z")
> [@WoodenTaco](#): > > Avicenna was known simply as “the Doctor” in almost all European writings. Any mention of Donna Noble in those writings? Sorry, that’s all I could come up with ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480/40 "2008-09-16T10:24:57Z")
I have heard the claim many times before, that the early middle ages weren’t really so bad. But I’m not convinced. It seems to me like some sort of dull-witted little brother that you people are too polite to make fun of. What happened during this time? They copied a lot of bibles more effectively? They built a lot of big churches? Bronze casting was rediscovered? Yawn. Leonardo did better work than this on a lazy afternoon. There was a “great philosopher” who interpreted a Greek philosopher, and actually was not even European? Give me a break. Meanwhile all the proper classical stuff like sanitation and natural science was forgotten and lost to the masses. The dark ages fucking sucked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-lot-of-what-we-assume-about-the-dark-ages-incorrect/463480.md?page=3)