# Is a Muslim vs non-Muslim WWIII on the horizon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508 "2005-10-29T21:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/21 "2005-10-30T21:36:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The OP selected a couple of incidents in which Muslims attacked Christians and wondered about a great conflict to come. > > I think it is entirely fair to note similar attacks by Christians on Muslims and wonder whether the OP sees that as the same sort of thing. > > To date, in Nigeria and a couple of other places, the violence from Christians toward Muslims has been greater than the violence from Muslims toward Christians. Certainly, in Sudan the opposite is true. > > I was merely pointing out that the phenomenon described in the OP is not a one-way street. > Similarly, while Europe could probably be described as post-Christian, the _culture_ is clearly Christian and since I doubt that most of the violence in any of the cases is motivated by religious teachings (as opposed to being motivated by cultural differences with religions as cultural identification markers), then noting (culturally) Christian Europe is within the scope of the discussion. I thought the clashes in Nigeria were a result of the Muslims insisting tha Sharia Lawa be adopted in a country that is supposed to be secular. [Here is an article](http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_nige.htm) that outlines things as I understood them. An excerpt: > [@](#): > > Nigeria is approximately 50% Muslim and 40% Christian. The remaining 10% follow Aboriginal and other faiths. Muslims are concentrated in the northern part of the country; Christians form the majority in the south. > > The country had been ruled by a military dictatorship until 1999-MAY, when Olusegun Obasajno became the country’s first democratically elected leader in two decades. Certain military leaders and their supporters have become disgruntled. These elements may be at least partly responsible for ethnic and religious violence which has plagued the country since democracy was established. > > Even though Section 10 of the federal constitution requires that Nigeria remain a secular country, the state of Xamfara adopted Sharia (Muslim law) in 1999-OCT. Since then, seven additional states started the process of adopting Sharia; these were Bauchi, Niger, Kaduna, Kano, Kebbi, Sokoto, and Yobe. All are in the northern section of the country. > > Some of the practical effects of Sharia are that it: > prohibits the consumption of alcohol, > allows caning, amputation of limbs, and beheading as punishment for certain crimes, > requires girls and boys to be educated separately, > requires separate public transportation for men and women. > > Riots broke out in Kaduna state on FEB-21. The conflict appears to be motivated by three factors: > > ``` > Christians and Muslims are almost equal in number in the state. > There are tribal divisions which mirror the religious differences. > Some groups fear and oppose the new democratically elected government. 3 > > ``` > > Mulsims had completed several days of joyous demonstrations in favor of Sharia. Later, Christian demonstrators had completed a peaceful demonstration at the Kaduna government house, in which they protested the imposition of Sharia. But when the Christians were returning home, they were stopped at a barricade installed by some Muslim youths. A fight broke out which expanded to a full scale riot. Churches, mosques and commercial establishments were incinerated. The army and police were able to restore order. But killings continued at a slower pace. By 2000- FEB-24, 50 deaths had been reported; the estimate appears to have been low. 1 [Emphasis mine.] If this does not give a complete or accurate picture I would be interested in another cite. But it does seem that the conflict is due to Muslims and their desire to impose Sharia Law. Canada is having to deal with this issue right now. Holland has changed their imigration laws to restrict Muslims, and France and Italy, if I recall correctly, are dealing with similar problems. I think that Christains have been responsible for their share of death in the name of religion, but those goes back to the era of the crusades or that of missionaries. In today’s world, I see very little evidence of Christians imposing their religion on others through violent means. Again, I am open to any contrary information you may have. I should have mentioned this in the OP, but doesn’t an insistence to impose Sharia Law in secular Middle Eastern countries or non-Muslim countries throughout the world pose a problem that has to come to a head? If not (which I sincerely hope is the case) what will let the air out of the balloon? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/22 "2005-10-31T03:36:08Z")
The violence in Nigeria began with Muslim riots. I mentioned Nigeria (and could have mentioned Cote d’Ivoire) because the Christian groups used initial Muslim riots as an excuse to carry out more systematic attacks on Muslims. Currrently, Nigerian Christians appear to have been rather more successful at killing Muslims than the reverse. [Here is one example, more recent than the riots to which you linked.](http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/118/32.0.html) From your own link: > [@](#): > > The conflict appears to be motivated by three factors: > > Christians and Muslims are almost equal in number in the state. > There are tribal divisions which mirror the religious differences. > Some groups fear and oppose the new democratically elected government. This view is supported by the words of a Christian missionary writing at the time of the 2002 riots, [Nigeria’s Violence Not a Simple Christian-Muslim Clash](http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=28070): > [@](#): > > “My Muslim friends were among the first to call to ask about how I was doing. However, the fanatics then went into action. They are on both sides and when they come out into the open, everything becomes difficult.” > [@](#): > > She continued: "The youngsters are those who live in the worst conditions, most of them are unemployed. How much time do you think is needed to manipulate them? Once the initial surprise passed, the Christians reacted with the same ferocity and the spiral closed. As always, the innocent are the ones who suffer most from the violent acts of the fanatics, which is carried out on behalf of both sides. So what I repeatedly see in these discussions are views that say when Muslims are murdered in Uzbekistan, Bosnia and Kosovo, Lebannon, Nigeria, Cote d’Ivoire, and other locations, it is simply cultural or ethnic or economic problems, but when Muslims are the aggreessors, it is religious. So far, no one has provided any evidence to persuade me that the root causes of the conflicts are not economic, political, or cultural _regardless_ who is the victim. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/23 "2005-10-31T03:46:53Z")
No, I don’t think there will be a Muslim vs non-Muslim WWIII type scenerio anytime soon…simply because most Muslim nations can’t really compete in a stand up war to non-Muslim nations in the West. This doesn’t mean that Muslim extremists haven’t been very active, but I see no indications that we are approaching anything like a World War where the major powers world wide choose up sides and begin slaughtering each other in job lots…simply because most of the world powers are either neutral or at least quasi-opposed to Muslim extremism. That said, tomndebb, do you have any evidence that Christian terrorist/insurgents are currently (say, in the last 10-20 years) as active as Muslim extremists in the name of Christianity? I’ve seen no real indication that there are roving Christian extremists who are engaged on the world scene in anything like Muslim extremists currently are (or for the last few decades). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/24 "2005-10-31T03:49:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So what I repeatedly see in these discussions are views that say when Muslims are murdered in Uzbekistan, Bosnia and Kosovo, Lebannon, Nigeria, Cote d’Ivoire, and other locations, it is simply cultural or ethnic or economic problems, but when Muslims are the aggreessors, it is religious. So far, no one has provided any evidence to persuade me that the root causes of the conflicts are not economic, political, or cultural _regardless_ who is the victim. So what if the roots aren’t religious? Is murder ever justified on economic, political, or curtural reasons? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/25 "2005-10-31T04:12:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That said, tomndebb, do you have any evidence that Christian terrorist/insurgents are currently (say, in the last 10-20 years) as active as Muslim extremists in the name of Christianity? Of course not. There are few places where Christians are both a significant minority and are being actively persecuted by Muslims. If Palestine becomes a viable state and implements Shari’a, we’ll have a chance to see whether Christians behave in that manner. Of course, we already have the examples of Lebannon, Bosnia, and Kosovo to see how Christians treat Muslims when an authoritarian regime loses the power it once had to make its fractious member groups behave–they become quite fierce in their desire to kill Muslims. > [@Updike](#): > > So what if the roots aren’t religious? Is murder ever justified on economic, political, or curtural reasons? Murder is never justified–and neither is blaming economic, political, or cultural conflicts on religion. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/26 "2005-10-31T04:34:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Murder is never justified–and neither is blaming economic, political, or cultural conflicts on religion. Agreed. However, it seems like you are taking it on faith that these ARE simply economic, political, or cultural conflicts, and where not exceberated, caused, or inflamed by religion, or religous upbringings. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/27 "2005-10-31T04:43:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Murder is never justified–and neither is blaming economic, political, or cultural conflicts on religion. But isn’t religion in these cases the deciding factor over who is killed or not? For the life of me I can’t tell a Catholic from a Protestant, but for years they killed each other in N. Ireland. Same thing between Sunni’s and Shiites in Iraq. Would the killing still have taken place if there wasn’t that difference in religion? If all the Jews in Israel converted overnight to Islam, would the conflict there still continue? I’d agree that religion isn’t always the deciding factor, but it is a factor. (Not that people seem to need much of a reason for killing each other) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/28 "2005-10-31T04:45:11Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Agreed. However, it seems like you are taking it on faith that these ARE simply economic, political, or cultural conflicts, and where not exceberated, caused, or inflamed by religion, or religous upbringings. I have quoted both **magellan01** ’s link and a separate link that I have provided noting that the issues in Nigeria appear to be non-religious except as regards to identifying whom to hate. I am pretty sure that I can find similar evidence in other places. On the other hand, your posting history indicates that you would blame religion, _per se_, regardless of any contrary evidence, so I am not going to expend any extra energy addressing your particular bias. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/29 "2005-10-31T04:55:50Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > For the life of me I can’t tell a Catholic from a Protestant, but for years they killed each other in N. Ireland. Northern Ireland is a classic point to support my position. Aside from Ian Paisley and a couple of other kooks, no one in Northern Ireland really cared about the _religious_ beliefs of the opposing side. No one was ever killed for attacking or defending Transubstantiation, Papal infallibility, or Apostolic Succession. Rather, Northern Ireland suffered many years of economic hardship in which the poorest had to fight for any work they could get. Laws in the region, drafted under a “Protestant” assembly, made it more difficult for (nominal) Catholics to take and hold jobs, holding them at the bottom of the economic ladder. The Orangemen do not tend to be drawn from the upper class with money, but from the lower classes who are afraid of losing their economic security. For a significant period from the 1970s through the 1990s, the IRA was dominated by anti-Catholic (or, at least, anti-clerical) Marxists who shunned the Catholic Church because it did not support armed rebellion and associated with the “Catholics” only to the extent that the neighborhoods from which they were drawn were the “papist” neighborhoods that suffered trhe worst economic deprivations. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/30 "2005-10-31T05:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > If all the Jews in Israel converted overnight to Islam, would the conflict there still continue? I’d agree that religion isn’t always the deciding factor, but it is a factor. If all the Jews in Israel converted to Islam, there would still remain the issue of the large number of _European_ Jews who migrated to the Levant and took Arab-held land. The history of that event is long and convoluted, but it is very much a matter of displaced persons and land perceived to have been stolen as much as it is an issue of religion. It is true that in Israel, moreso than in most other places, the _rhetoric_ has focused on the religion (or perceived ethnicity) of the opposing factions, but from the early purchase of land by European Jews from Turkish and Egyptian landholders of farmland that was being _worked_ by Palestinian tenants through the “abandonment” of the land by Palestinians who either feared for their lives or believed Arab propaganda in 1948, through the “settlements” of Israelis on Palestinian land following the 1967 war, the underlying conflict has much more to do with possession of land than which building one attends for worship. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/31 "2005-10-31T07:07:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The violence in Nigeria began with Muslim riots. I mentioned Nigeria (and could have mentioned Cote d’Ivoire) because the Christian groups used initial Muslim riots as an excuse to carry out more systematic attacks on Muslims. Thanks for the links. And your point of Christians being responsible for killing Muslims is well noted. What I wonder is to what degree can this all be traced to the conflict with Sharia law? I have no doubt it is not 100%, but much of the mutual violence seems to have root in the problem with declaring, or allowing, Sharia. Regardless, your links show that there are additional factors at work. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/32 "2005-10-31T13:36:38Z")
> [@](#): > > by **Malodorous** > I have a simple rule for determining if there’s a World War going on. If there’s any sort of arguement about wheather somethings a world war, then it isn’t. During World Wars, millions die, countries switch to wartime economies, cities are leveled, etc. Without intending any insult, your analysis leaves something to be desired. I said World War, in the sense that it touches (nearly) the whole world. WWI did, because of Imperial Europe. WWII did, simply because of the sheer scale of fighting (which did involve soldiers from all over the planet). WW3 (Cold War) did, for obvious reasons. This is WW4, and it is affecting more than half the planet. “World War” does not simply mean “a devastating war,” or we would have a lot more World Wars. And our current war is not like traditional wars. But if “World War” means what it says (and of course, to me it does) then we are indeed in one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/33 "2005-10-31T14:24:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > \So what I repeatedly see in these discussions are views that say when Muslims are murdered in Uzbekistan, Bosnia and Kosovo, Lebannon, Nigeria, Cote d’Ivoire, and other locations, it is simply cultural or ethnic or economic problems, but when Muslims are the aggreessors, it is religious. So far, no one has provided any evidence to persuade me that the root causes of the conflicts are not economic, political, or cultural _regardless_ who is the victim. Is religion not part of culture? A very important part? If you are referring to non-religious cultural differences, what might those differences be? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/34 "2005-10-31T14:53:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If all the Jews in Israel converted to Islam, there would still remain the issue of the large number of _European_ Jews who migrated to the Levant and took Arab-held land. The history of that event is long and convoluted, but it is very much a matter of displaced persons and land perceived to have been stolen as much as it is an issue of religion. Why did you italicize European? If we removed the religious aspect are you saying that it would revert to an ethnic issue? How many of the Palestinians alive today were the ones who had their land stolen from them? I think after this time I’d be trying to find some way to cut my losses and get on with my life rather than strapping a bomb to myself to blow up people who, like me, may not have been even born at the time. I still suggest the main reason this sort of conflict continues is because of the religion. You can only blow up fellow mosque/temple goers so long until someone says it’s sacreligious. Blowing up the other mosque/temple goer can be justified because its God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/35 "2005-10-31T16:50:49Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Why did you italicize European? If we removed the religious aspect are you saying that it would revert to an ethnic issue? > How many of the Palestinians alive today were the ones who had their land stolen from them? I think after this time I’d be trying to find some way to cut my losses and get on with my life rather than strapping a bomb to myself to blow up people who, like me, may not have been even born at the time. I still suggest the main reason this sort of conflict continues is because of the religion. You can only blow up fellow mosque/temple goers so long until someone says it’s sacreligious. Blowing up the other mosque/temple goer can be justified because its God’s will. I italicized European because that is how the people on the land perceived the “invaders.” There was no major migration of Jews from India or the Americas or China prior to the 1948 war, but there definitely were large numbers of Jews migrating from Europe in the early 20th century (with a visible but smaller number prior to the 20th century). Israel is a land of immigrants. There have always been Jews on the land, but they state was established by the newcomers. Regardless what you believe you would do in a particular situation, (and I have made no comment regarding what people _should_ do), the situation in the region is based on historical perceptions in which religion is an identifying marker, rather than an actual point of serious contention. The people on the West Bank are not the grandchildren of people who lost land, they are the people who lost land. No one born after the 1967 war has even reached the age of 40. The people who lost land in 1948 could easily be in their 70s–and I know a lot of people in their 70s who are alive, today. I am not claiming that everyone ignores religion; I am pointing out that it is not religious belief that propels the anger and aggression. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Is religion not part of culture? A very important part? If you are referring to non-religious cultural differences, what might those differences be? Sure it is an important aspect of culture. That, of course, is why Protestants are routinely mugged and blown up in Dublin and Catholics cannot walk through the streets of Liverpool or London without a police escort. As I have already noted, no one who has fired a gun or thrown a bomb in Northern Ireland has every yelled, “_Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura_!” or “Transubstantiation or Death!” Religion makes a very effective marker for people in conflict to identify their “enemies.” That is hardly the same thing as claiming that people are motivated by religion to wreak havoc. I am not claiming that they have _never_ done so, but in every conflict I can see on the globe, today, the people who are most resorting to aggression are people who believe they are being aced out of property or power: Philipines? Landless people who have been fighting for a form of independence and security for over 100 years. Nigeria? Migrating peoples fighting for limited resources. Chechnya? Indigenous people asserting a desire for independence. Palestine? People who have lost land and political self-determination. Iraq? The Kurds want independence, the Sunni want back the power they just lost, and the Shia want to exercise the power of which they were deprived for more than a generation. Even the Wahabbists of Saudi Arabia (who are the group most nearly acting for “religious” reasons) generally are opposed to what they see as the corrupt power of the Saud family and feel powerless to change it except through violence. Who are they fighting against? Philipines? Christian majority. Nigeria? Christians or Muslims (depending on their tribal association) who they perceive to have it better off. Chechnya? Christian (or atheist) Russians. Palestine? Jewish Israelis.\* Iraq? The “other guy” has always been identified by their religious belief. Saudi Araia? The Western “Christian” nations that prop up the Saud princes. \*(And I do hope that this audience is aware that there are a number of Christian Palestinians who are supporting the _intifada_.) ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/36 "2005-10-31T17:32:03Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Without intending any insult, your analysis leaves something to be desired. I said World War, in the sense that it touches (nearly) the whole world. WWI did, because of Imperial Europe. WWII did, simply because of the sheer scale of fighting (which did involve soldiers from all over the planet). WW3 (Cold War) did, for obvious reasons. This is WW4, and it is affecting more than half the planet. But many conflicts touch the whole planet, specially now a days. The war on Drugs for example, but I doubt anyone classifies the War on Drugs as a World War. Likewise for the many wars fought between imperial European powers pre 1914, which if anything, were probably wider in geographic scope then The War on Terror. > [@](#): > > “World War” does not simply mean “a devastating war,” or we would have a lot more World Wars. And our current war is not like traditional wars. But if “World War” means what it says (and of course, to me it does) then we are indeed in one. It’s a semantic arguement, and in the end we can each define the term as we’d like, but I’d say that a certain amount of devastation is necessary for what most people would call a World War. When I (and I think most people) use the term, I think of something that needs to meet both criteria: it needs to be devestating and have a broad geograpic scope. Thus the War on Terror has not (and hopefully will never) reach the necessary scale of devestation, while regional conflicts that reach horrific scales of carnage also don’t qualify (Rawandan civil war, say) ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/37 "2005-10-31T17:35:07Z")
A large percentage of the Israeli population are Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab countries. They are not “European invaders”, despite Muslim propaganda that likes to portray all Israeli Jews as such. Nobody ever talks about compensating them for the land and property that they lost. World War IV has been going on for a while in the Middle East. Look at the population trends and the way Christians are treated in the West Bank, Egypt and other Islamic states. Militant Islam has historically been incapable of peaceful coexistence with other religions and cultures. The best a non-Muslim can hope for is an oppressive state of second-class citizenship. Sharia law and human rights are incompatible. This isn’t just an element of radical Islam, it’s a fundamental part of mainstream Islam. Islam is incompatible with Western ideas of human rights. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/38 "2005-10-31T17:43:05Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Look at the population trends and the way Christians are treated in the West Bank, Egypt and other Islamic states. Militant Islam has historically been incapable of peaceful coexistence with other religions and cultures. The best a non-Muslim can hope for is an oppressive state of second-class citizenship. Sharia law and human rights are incompatible. This isn’t just an element of radical Islam, it’s a fundamental part of mainstream Islam. Of course, Militant Islam itself was heavily influenced by those crusade things (as well as by such things as they old Ottoman Empire and fall there of, WWI and European meddling in the ME, the Cold War with Soviet/US meddling, etc)…launched by Militant Christians. Certainly that was a long time in the past…but folks in dem parts gots long memories. I’m not saying this as a excuse, and certainly the Jews had little or nothing to do with all that (being busily persecuted themselves)…but you have to look at the Middle East mess in the context of history. And part of what makes the Islamic Militant types what they are today is because they were shaped that way… -XT ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/39 "2005-10-31T19:06:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That, of course, is why Protestants are routinely mugged and blown up in Dublin and Catholics cannot walk through the streets of Liverpool or London without a police escort. IIRC you are a Catholic. Are you afraid to travel to London? Honestly I had no idea that the situation was so bad for Catholics in England. I never thought the English Anglicans were so militant. > [@tomndebb](#): > > So far, no one has provided any evidence to persuade me that the root causes of the conflicts are not economic, political, or cultural regardless who is the victim. First of all, I agree with you. The key word is “root causes”. There are thousands of economic political and cultural conflicts all over the world with no noticeble religious dichotomy , but most of them do not result in the major violence we’ve seen recently in Nigeria. (certainly there are exceptions as in the case of Darfur or Rwanda) Yet I’ve noticed that you’ve continued to ignore the repeated fact that the recent violence in Nigeria was \*\*sparked \*\*by the introduction of Sharia law. I would suggest that religion provides justification to the soul for violence. We are right in God’s/Allah’s eyes and you are not and therefore if you , an unbeliever resist you must be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/40 "2005-11-01T03:38:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The people on the West Bank are not the grandchildren of people who lost land, they are the people who lost land. No one born after the 1967 war has even reached the age of 40. The people who lost land in 1948 could easily be in their 70s–and I know a lot of people in their 70s who are alive, today. 46-49% of Palestinians are under the age of 14 years. The median age is 16.5 years vs. the US at somewhere over 35. There are very few as a percentage of the population of Palestinians who would remember pre-1967. Remind me again why they would be fighting for something most of them have never seen and are not likely ever to get back even if the Israelis somehow disappeared overnight? [Age Breakdown of Palestine](http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/palestig.htm) [Somewhat more detailed, but older numbers (warning: PDF)](http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/pdf/pdf2004/4-Population.pdf) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508.md?page=3)