# Is a Muslim vs non-Muslim WWIII on the horizon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508 "2005-10-29T21:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/41 "2005-11-01T03:50:04Z")
> [@](#): > > by **Malodorous** > But many conflicts touch the whole planet, specially now a days. The war on Drugs for example, but I doubt anyone classifies the War on Drugs as a World War. Well, the War of Drugs is much less a war than a policy statement. The War of Terror, however, awfully named, is still composed first and most notably of fighting as the gateway to diplomatic success. > [@](#): > > Likewise for the many wars fought between imperial European powers pre 1914, which if anything, were probably wider in geographic scope then The War on Terror. Actually, I wouldn’t count most of them. Aside from some actions here and there, they mostly did their fighting at home. Frankly, I wouldn’t even count World War 1 as a true World War (but the Grandfather Clause rules all. > [@](#): > > by **xtisme** > Of course, Militant Islam itself was heavily influenced by those crusade things Actually, from what I’ve seen they were not particularly influenced by any outside force. Their primary inspiration was actually from a conservative muslim from the early 20th century who published a hardcore tract against the West. Their current tactics were picked up from fighting in Afganistan and Africa over the years, most of it internal. A lot of their fascination with fascism dates back to the Nazi era, and of course the Soviets were dealing with them all through the Cold War. Aside from that, Muslim Jihadis were around and kicking doing much the same thing as the Crusaders very early in their history. I say this not at all to say they are worse, but simply to note that they needed no outside influence. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/42 "2005-11-01T06:11:44Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > IIRC you are a Catholic. Are you afraid to travel to London? Honestly I had no idea that the situation was so bad for Catholics in England. I never thought the English Anglicans were so militant. whooosh? I realize that a text mediuim is not always the best for conveying irony, but as thick as I laid it on, I would hope that it was apparent in a statement that is clearly not based in fact. The point was that for all the claims of “religious” differences, if one stepped outside the boundaries of the particular social and economic struggles, the religious tension evaporated. I never had any fear strolling the streets of London or Dublin, and I doubt that anyone has. (Even when the IRA was in the habit of attacking British pubs (where they could not know that no Catholics would be inside), the battle cry was not “_Deus Vult!_,” but “Brits Out!”) > [@](#): > > Yet I’ve noticed that you’ve continued to ignore the repeated fact that the recent violence in Nigeria was sparked by the introduction of Sharia law. > I would suggest that religion provides justification to the soul for violence. We are right in God’s/Allah’s eyes and you are not and therefore if you , an unbeliever resist you must be killed. I didn’t ignore it; I provided testimony from a Christian witness that downplayed it. Now, I am sure that religion can be used to whip up hatred. I have never denied that. I have two points in these discussions: that religion is not generally the primary motivation and that people looking to characterize one religion or another as bad have not yet provided enough evidence to persuade me. Even with the Shari’a spark, I am not sure that we are seeing the causes clearly. Nomadic and tribal peoples move into a region, forced to migrate because the Sahel is failing or because wars in other locations are driving them out. When they get to their new locations, they discover that the settled populace is using the (remnant of) colonial law to maintain power in ways that may conflict with the more familiar laws that the migrating peoples brought with them. In the midst of the general conflict over resources and power, someone raises the issue that the laws with which they are more comfortable are God’s laws, giving them new fervor in their struggle. (There is an interesting parallel, here, to the British concessions of the Quebec Act of 1774.) > [@Uzi](#): > > There are very few as a percentage of the population of Palestinians who would remember pre-1967. Remind me again why they would be fighting for something most of them have never seen and are not likely ever to get back even if the Israelis somehow disappeared overnight? I want to be there when you offer that same argument in the context of Jews just needing to get over the Shoah. I am not claiming what any side should or should not do; that is your hijack. I am noting that they are very aware of their recent history and it shapes their lives. Heck, I grew up very much aware of the various (mostly mild) persecutions of Catholics in the U.S. and I never suffered anything worse than some childish taunting on the way to or from school. I think it would be a lot easier to maintain a good hate if Uncle Ali was reminiscing about when he used to run sheep on that tract that is now wired off by the new settlers. > [@mks57](#): > > A large percentage of the Israeli population are Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab countries. They are not “European invaders”, despite Muslim propaganda that likes to portray all Israeli Jews as such. Nobody ever talks about compensating them for the land and property that they lost. I suspect that your idea of “large percentage” would differ from that of most people. As to the “propaganda” of “invaders”: David Raziel - Russia Abba Ahimeir - Russia (Belarus) Uri Zvi Greenberg - Russia David Ben-Gurion - Poland Yitzhak BenZvi - Ukraine Shimon Peres - Poland Golda Meir - Ukraine Levi Eshkol - Ukraine Menachem Begin - Russia (Belarus) Yitzhak Rabin - Palestine (Hey! A local! Parents were European immigrants) Ariel Sharon - Palestine (Another local! Parents were European immigrants) [The population of Jews in Palestine](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html) tripled between 1931 and 1939, from 175,000 to 449,000. I would really like to see some evidence that Jewish women were having enough babies to create that situation without a little outside help. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/43 "2005-11-01T06:31:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I want to be there when you offer that same argument in the context of Jews just needing to get over the Shoah. > I am not claiming what any side should or should not do; that is your hijack. I am noting that they are very aware of their recent history and it shapes their lives. I never said anyone should just get over it. But to keep reliving it is pointless. Although, I think associating someone stealing your house with attempted genocide is rather a stretch. What I’m saying is that there is ‘us’ and there is ‘them’. Religion is what differentiates in this case. If, as I said before, the Jews all converted to Islam overnight, it would be an ‘us’ vs. ‘us’ fight which would eventually taper off. The reason the fighting is continuing is because of the religious differences, without it there would be minimal reason to fight. It has gone past fighting for reparations to fighting for the glory of god and casting the infidel into the sea. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/44 "2005-11-01T08:57:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I suspect that your idea of “large percentage” would differ from that of most people. > > As to the “propaganda” of “invaders”: > David Raziel - Russia > Abba Ahimeir - Russia (Belarus) > Uri Zvi Greenberg - Russia > David Ben-Gurion - Poland > Yitzhak BenZvi - Ukraine > Shimon Peres - Poland > Golda Meir - Ukraine > Levi Eshkol - Ukraine > Menachem Begin - Russia (Belarus) > Yitzhak Rabin - Palestine (Hey! A local! Parents were European immigrants) > Ariel Sharon - Palestine (Another local! Parents were European immigrants) > > [The population of Jews in Palestine](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html) tripled between 1931 and 1939, from 175,000 to 449,000. I would really like to see some evidence that Jewish women were having enough babies to create that situation without a little outside help. You are being selective in your choice of facts, to the point of being deceptive. Nobody denies that the Zionist movement was largely run by Ashkenazim (European Jews), and that they have functioned as a ruling class in Israel. If you extend your time-line to 1948 and beyond, almost a million Jews from Arab countries (Mizrachim) emigrated to Israel, largely in response to their poor treatment in their native lands and the violent Arab response to the creation of the state of Israel. They, and their descendants, comprise about 50% of the Jews in Israel. From their historical point of view, the Arabs are the invaders and colonizers of the Middle East. Pop Quiz: Where was Yasser Arafat born? Hint: It wasn’t Jerusalem, as claimed in his official biography. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/45 "2005-11-01T11:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > If you extend your time-line to 1948 and beyond, almost a million Jews from Arab countries (Mizrachim) emigrated to Israel, largely in response to their poor treatment in their native lands and the violent Arab response to the creation of the state of Israel. Cite? I am not in any way challenging the notion that the Jews of the MENA region moved to Israel after it became a viable location in which to flee harrassment. I am interested in seeing the numbers that demonstrate that they were nearly as numerous as the people arriving from Europe. On the other hand, even if true, it hardly changes my point: the local Arabs clearly _perceived_ the migration as a European phenomenon, especially in light of the (mostly European) Zionist movement, (and even if they recognized the distinction regarding MENA region Jews, people moving from Egypt and Syria and other countries were still “invaders” from the perspective of the local population). That is hardly being deceptive. To note that the movement that drove the early migrations and from which the leadership of the new country arose were European establishes my point. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/46 "2005-11-01T12:01:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, is it coming? If so, when? And please try not to make this a partisan issue. I think it is much larger than anyone who has held office in the past four, twelve or twenty years. Newt Gingrich has called it the _“Long War”_ against the _"Irreconcilable Wing of Islam”_. Newt Gingrich statement to House Subcommittee on Intelligence: [http://intelligence.house.gov/Media/PDFS/GingrichTestimony101905.pdf](http://intelligence.house.gov/Media/PDFS/GingrichTestimony101905.pdf) See The Belmont Club, The Long War: [http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/10/long-war.html](http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/10/long-war.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/47 "2005-11-01T12:07:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Cite? I think the number most often used is 700.000 - 800.000. See Wikipedia: > **[Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands)** > > The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries, or Jewish exodus from Arab countries, was the departure, flight, expulsion, evacuation and migration of 850,000 Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab countries and the Muslim world, mainly from 1948 to the early 1970s. The last major migration wave took place from Iran in 1979–80, as a consequence of the Iranian Revolution. > A number of small-scale Jewish exoduses began in many Middle Eastern countries early in the 20th ... > **[Mizrahi Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jew)** > > Mizrahi Jews (Hebrew: יהודי המִזְרָח‎) or Mizrahim (מִזְרָחִים), also sometimes referred to as Mizrachi (מִזְרָחִי), Edot HaMizrach (עֲדוֹת-הַמִּזְרָח; transl. '\[Jewish\] Communities of the \[Middle\] East') or Oriental Jews, are the descendants of the local Jewish communities that had existed in Western Asia and North Africa from Biblical times into the modern era. > In current usage, the term Mizrahim is almost exclusively applied to descendants of the Middle Eastern Jewish communities from Weste... See also “The Silent Exodus”: [http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm](http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm) ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/48 "2005-11-01T12:28:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Cite? See [http://www.jimena.org/faq.htm](http://www.jimena.org/faq.htm). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/49 "2005-11-01T13:46:39Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > Cite? > > See [http://www.jimena.org/faq.htm](http://www.jimena.org/faq.htm). OK. Your cite notes that an Egyptian politician made an off-hand guess that there were 1,000,000 Jews living in MENA prior to the establishment of Israel. **Rune** ’s Wiki links provide a list of 652,000 Jews who left (selected) MENA countries. Between the number of those who would have migrated to France, the U.S. and other places offset by the number of countries not reported in the Wiki article, I can accept a figure of roughly 1,000,000 Mizrahim immigrating to Israel. Thank you. However, your initial statement was that the “European invaders” claim was “Arab propaganda,” yet your citation and the Wiki articles both note that the MENA migration occurred because of the hostility that arose at the time of Israeli independence and the 1948 war. In other words, the large number of Jews who founded the country (prompting the “Arab propaganda”) did, indeed, tend to be “European invaders” with the Mizrahim moving to Israel in subsequent years. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/50 "2005-11-01T15:24:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > However, your initial statement was that the “European invaders” claim was “Arab propaganda,” yet your citation and the Wiki articles both note that the MENA migration occurred because of the hostility that arose at the time of Israeli independence and the 1948 war. In other words, the large number of Jews who founded the country (prompting the “Arab propaganda”) did, indeed, tend to be “European invaders” with the Mizrahim moving to Israel in subsequent years. They may have had a point in 1947, if you ignore the existing Jewish community in the British mandate, but the characterization of Israeli Jews as “European invaders” is popular even today in the Arab world and among their sympathizers. It’s rather ironic for a descendant of Arab invaders to be telling a Mizrachi Jew that he is an unwelcome foreigner. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/51 "2005-11-01T16:09:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > whooosh? > > I realize that a text mediuim is not always the best for conveying irony, but as thick as I laid it on, I would hope that it was apparent in a statement that is clearly not based in fact. Whooosh right back at ya ? Actually I needed to have the relevance of the whooosh explained to me. After all, a small invisible minority with little political ambition or power or impact is not going to spark a violent conflict wherever you go. Furthermore, it seems to me that as long as a small religious minority, even in the middle east, refrains from going political, the likelyhood of violent conflict is almost non-existent. > [@](#): > > Now, I am sure that religion can be used to whip up hatred. I have never denied that. I have two points in these discussions: that religion is not generally the primary motivation and that people looking to characterize one religion or another as bad have not yet provided enough evidence to persuade me. > Even with the Shari’a spark, I am not sure that we are seeing the causes clearly. Well imagine this. The year is 2030. The Christian fundamentalists have supplanted the neocons in the Republican party which won the last election by a majority of 60%. Roe vs Wade is overturned, Alcohol is prohibited, and the Senate has been reconfigured to an appointed body of Southern Baptist clerics. Geez, I have seen here on the SDMB a great deal of conflict between the few fundamentalist dopers and the majority amorphous dopers. If the above scenario comes to pass, do you not think it would be a violent confrontation? If you agree, other than the political aspect of this scenario, there would be no other factors involved. I can’t see how a non-muslim, given the opportunity to resist would allow himself to be subjected to a religious based law code that in all likelyhood doesn’t reflect his values and will severely affect his security. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/52 "2005-11-01T16:21:32Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > They may have had a point in 1947, if you ignore the existing Jewish community in the British mandate, but the characterization of Israeli Jews as “European invaders” is popular even today in the Arab world and among their sympathizers. It’s rather ironic for a descendant of Arab invaders to be telling a Mizrachi Jew that he is an unwelcome foreigner. Aren’t Americans who call illegal immigrants “invaders” equally guilty of this, given the origins of our country? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/53 "2005-11-01T20:11:57Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > They may have had a point in 1947, if you ignore the existing Jewish community in the British mandate, but the characterization of Israeli Jews as “European invaders” is popular even today in the Arab world and among their sympathizers. OK, you have a country that was **founded** and **initially populated** by European immigrants. 58 years later you still have a population of which over 50% (if barely) is either among those immigrants or their direct descendants. I think that you are trying your own form of propaganda by dismissing a very real perception held by the people of the region. Argue that after all this time they have a right to be there? Fine. Making claims that the “other side” is playing fast and loose with the truth when you have to couch your language and history in very specific terms in order to define their claims as false? You aren’t any different than they are in that regards. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/54 "2005-11-01T21:47:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > OK, you have a country that was **founded** and **initially populated** by European immigrants. 58 years later you still have a population of which over 50% (if barely) is either among those immigrants or their direct descendants. I think that you are trying your own form of propaganda by dismissing a very real perception held by the people of the region. > > Argue that after all this time they have a right to be there? Fine. > Making claims that the “other side” is playing fast and loose with the truth when you have to couch your language and history in very specific terms in order to define their claims as false? You aren’t any different than they are in that regards. You are entitled to your own opinion. I think it is dishonest to claim that Israel is a nation of “European Invaders”. As an example of current thinking in the fundamentalist wing of Islam, I submit the following: Notes from President Ahmadinejad’s speech at the recent “World Without Zionism” conference, as reported by Barry Rubin, director of the Global Research in International Affairs Center and editor of the Middle East Review of International Affairs and Turkish Studies (Jerusalem Post, 2005-11-01): • Hamas, Hizbullah and Islamic Jihad were officially represented at the “World Without Zionism” meeting as a demonstration of their goals and orientation. • Israel was largely declared as evil because it was really the spearhead of a Western attempt to destroy Islam. • Not only was it easy and desirable to destroy Israel but the United States should also be wiped out. • In still another direct threat, he warned that any Muslim country that recognizes Israel would face the wrath of all Muslims, i.e., Iranian-sponsored terrorism. • The idea that Palestinian groups should focus on getting an independent state or improving living standards was an Israeli trick to divert them from eliminating Israel and encourage them to fight among themselves. • In a future Palestine, Jews would have no rights since they had only come to the country from far away to plunder the country. • No matter how bad the strategic situation looks or how much it costs, the Muslims should battle on for as long as it takes to destroy Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/55 "2005-11-03T00:10:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In the midst of the general conflict over resources and power, someone raises the issue that the laws with which they are more comfortable are God’s laws, giving them new fervor in their struggle. (There is an interesting parallel, here, to the British concessions of the Quebec Act of 1774.) This caught my eye. What is the parallel with the Quebec Act you’re thinking about? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/56 "2005-11-03T01:42:34Z")
A note on the question of whether Palestinians remember 1948 and 1967 - I believe that many of the older people certainly do, but we shouldn’t be thinking of these events as the sole, or even the major reasons why Palestinians today dislike Israel. Basically, there are a range of immediate concerns that Palestinians have with current Israeli actions, such as the building of settlements in the West Bank, the buildng of the “wall” or “security barrier” and the checkpoint system. (The issue is not whether the wall, for example, is justified, but merely that most Palestinians resent it.) Most Palestinians literally encounter these fresh ‘insults’ every day, and thus the anger is kept current. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/57 "2005-11-03T01:48:32Z")
Posted too soon, dammit. **Malodorous** , I disagree with your characterisation of the current position in Indonesia. I’m not sure what you’re referring to as “wars”, or who the antagonists were, but I can assure you that there has been no conflict approaching a “war” between the government and Islamists except perhaps the one-sided crushing of the Dar ul-Islam state in the early 60s. That is, all the armed conflicts have been ethnically based (eg Aceh) or better classified as “police actions” (Indonesian police actions v DI, JI). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/58 "2005-11-03T02:05:25Z")
> [@severus](#): > > This caught my eye. What is the parallel with the Quebec Act you’re thinking about? In order to placate the local population with the intention od persuading them to resist joining the fractiuous colonies to the south, the British Parliament enacted the Quebec Act that enshrined a number of Catholic Church prerogatives in Quebec law. Some of the rights and obligations carried forward for many years and have played a part in forming the conditions under which the Separatist movement has developed, even though there are pretty much no _religious_ issues any more between Quebec and the rest of the Dominion. (It is not a direct parallel to all the separate issues discussed in this thread, but it struck me as interesting in the general context of the discussion.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508/59 "2005-11-03T02:49:49Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > You are entitled to your own opinion. I think it is dishonest to claim that Israel is a nation of “European Invaders”. OK. Name one Mizrahim who was an integral part of the founding of Israel. (Or, more to the point, provide their numbers as a percent of the total Jewish population in what became Israel. The population of Jews in the region provided in my earlier link were 175,000 in 1931, 449,000 in 1939, and 553,000 in 1945. Where are the numbers that show that that _founding_ population included substantial numbers of Mizrahim? Rabin and Sharon and Dayan and their fellows do not count; they were Ashkenazim whose parents migrated to the region as part of the earlier Zionist efforts. The U.S. is frequently referred to as a “nation of immigrants” despite the fact that from the 1920s through the 1970s the doors were slammed shut on immigration so that by the time of the 1960s, very few immigrants were living in the U.S. How is this significantly different? Beyond that, I am not arguing that Israel is a nation of European invaders; I am noting that that is the _perception_ among the people whose grandparents inhabited the land prior to 1948 and whose parents inhabited the land prior to 1967. If you really believe that they hold those views only because of some sort of Arab propaganda machine, then I would note that I know several fourth and fifth generation ethnic Irish in the U.S. who harbor dark thoughts against the British despite there being no serious Irish propaganda machine and that Turks keep finding their neighbors and relatives blown up and shot by the descendants of Armenians who survived pogroms that ended over 80 years ago. As to the rest of your most recent post, I am not aware that anyone has suggested that Ahmadinejad is peaceful, rational, or otherwise a pleasant person. There clearly are some fanatical Muslims who intend harm to other people, (we had a pretty good demonstration of their hostility a bit over four years ago). On the other hand, in the context of this thread, I would note that I have seen no leader in Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, UAE, Kuwait, Yemen, Qatar, Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, or the various former Soviet -istans make any comment supporting or even agreeing with Ahmadinejad. That suggests, to me, that regardless how virulent some factions happen to be within the Muslim world, there will be no general face-off between Islam and the rest of the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-muslim-vs-non-muslim-wwiii-on-the-horizon/328508.md?page=2)