# Is a tiny Cross that offensive
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 3, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365 "2004-06-03T00:51:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/21 "2004-06-03T17:12:47Z")
I have no problem with a seal that acknowledges the importance of Catholic Missions in California history. But wouldn’t a picture of a mission be a much clearer way to do that?
Re The Name Los Angeles
I doubt most Americans know that Los Angeles is a short version of a longer name, let alone what that longer name is. Changing all city names that have some religious signifcance would be extremely difficult. While some names are obvious, many are not. While watching Angels In America, I learned that Bethesda, Maryland is likely named after an angel. More, the amount of maps and forms that woud have to be changed is staggering. Finally, the attempt to get the US to go metric (which BTW I oppose. You can have my 12 inch ruler when you pry it from my cold-in Farhenheit- fingers) has shown that sheer inertia and stubborness prevent such changes.
Re Pomona
The difference is that Christianity is a huge, thriving religion. With the resurgence of Paganism, NeoPaganism etc, Pomona may currently have some worshippers. But she is essentially part of a defunct religion. But, if people insist, I have no objection to removing her and replacing her with a basket of California’s crops, a fruit tree, or an orchard.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/22 "2004-06-03T17:30:35Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> I doubt most Americans know that Los Angeles is a short version of a longer name, let alone what that longer name is. Changing all city names that have some religious signifcance would be extremely difficult. While some names are obvious, many are not. While watching Angels In America, I learned that Bethesda, Maryland is likely named after an angel. More, the amount of maps and forms that woud have to be changed is staggering. Finally, the attempt to get the US to go metric (which BTW I oppose. You can have my 12 inch ruler when you pry it from my cold-in Farhenheit- fingers) has shown that sheer inertia and stubborness prevent such changes.
If I follow you, you’re saying that as arguments against changing the name of Los Angeles, you put forth:
1. The name’s origin is obscure; and
2. Changing the name would be pretty danged difficult.
I’m not sure I agree with the first point; any fool can see the “Angel” in “Los Angeles.” Surely more people know about the name’s source than know about the crucifix on the city’s seal.
However, the second point makes sense: changing the name of a major city would be a humongous deal. I can’t think of the last time that a comparable city had its name changed: Leningrad, maybe, or Constantinople? In both cases, the name changes reflected (if I understand correctly) major political and cultural upheavals. That’s not what we’re seeing here.
I’m not advocating the name change, natch; I’m just playing with the idea. My gut tells me that the crucifixes probably oughtta go, but my gut isn’t always right.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/23 "2004-06-03T17:37:32Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#):
>
> I’m not advocating the name change, natch; I’m just playing with the idea. My gut tells me that the crucifixes probably oughtta go, but my gut isn’t always right.
As much as I don’t think religious symbols belong on government seals, do keep in mind that changing the seal can be very expensive-- it’s everywhere (not just stationary, but buildings and vehicles). I don’t know if it would create legal problems to have two seals, but if it wouldn’t, I could see where one might require changing the seal “from this day forward”, but not requiring the older seals to be removed or changed. Over time, we’d see the old seal more or less disappear.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/24 "2004-06-03T17:45:44Z")
**Cool** (For as the Handara say 'Cool is the left hand of Dorkness, and dorkness the right hand of cool)
I’m not saying that the religious nature and origin of Los Angeles are obscure. I am saying that the cities full name (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula, “The Town of Our Lady of Porciúncula, Queen of the Angels.”) is.
Re Crucifix
I’m Jewish so I may be wrong. But AFAIK a cross, is well just a cross. A crucifix is a cross with a figure of Jesus crucified on it.
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### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/25 "2004-06-03T18:10:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> As much as I don’t think religious symbols belong on government seals, do keep in mind that changing the seal can be very expensive-- it’s everywhere (not just stationary, but buildings and vehicles). I don’t know if it would create legal problems to have two seals, but if it wouldn’t, I could see where one might require changing the seal “from this day forward”, but not requiring the older seals to be removed or changed. Over time, we’d see the old seal more or less disappear.
That’s what I was thinking as well. If it is ruled or settled that the change must absolutely occur, I think a reasonable compromise would be about what you describe: change the cross to a mission or something similar and start using the new seal when needed, gradually replacing the old seal over time.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/26 "2004-06-03T18:23:13Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Re Crucifix
> I’m Jewish so I may be wrong. But AFAIK a cross, is well just a cross. A crucifix is a cross with a figure of Jesus crucified on it.
Notwithstanding that you’ve just given me the best nickname yet from this username, for which I thank you :D, don’t think you can outpedant me, grasshopper!
A crucifix is sometimes they cross with a figure of Jesus on it, but it can also refer to the cross itself as a symbol of the religion or of the crucifixion. Check out [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com). I use “crucifix” to distinguish between nonreligious cross symbols and religious cross symbols.
I agree with you that the city’s full name is obscure, but my point was that its religious connotations are not.
That said, the more I think about this, the less I care about the crucifixes on the seal. They really do serve an historical purpose in this case, I think, and they’re just one of many symbols on the seal. Seems legit to me.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@jebert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jebert)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/27 "2004-06-03T18:27:37Z")
The symbol of the City of St. Louis is a mounted figure of Louis IX holding a sword upside down by its blade so that the hilt resembles a cross. That will clearly have to go as well.
And while we’re changing the name of Los Angeles, we’ll have to change the names of several other cities named after religious icons. St. Louis, St. Paul, St. Petersburg, San Francisco, San Diego, and a host of other Sans and Santas are all named after Christian figures, saints at that. Let’s be sure to get them all so we only have to change the maps and signs once.
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### Author:  [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/28 "2004-06-03T18:34:17Z")
> [@PetW](#):
>
> for all I know there could be millions of people that still regularly worship Zeus, but it seems to me that nobody really takes Greek gods seriously anymore.
May Odin and Loki have mercy on your soul!
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/29 "2004-06-03T18:51:29Z")
Gods…this is freaking ridiculous. It would be one thing if this was a new symbol…but its been there for a long time guys. Since 1957 actually. And up until now, no one gave a shit. This thing is a tempest in a teacup…what difference does it really make?
Take a [peak](http://www.laavenue.com/SealLA.htm) at the thing. The most prominent feature is the greek goddess. As far as the cross thing goes, unless it was pointed out I probably wouldn’t have given it a second thought…and most other people are the same.
Whats next? My sister is a vegan…maybe she and the rest of the vegans will be offended by the fish and the cow? Perhaps the greens will be offended by the oil derricks? Perhaps native Americans will be offended by the Spanish Gallion? I’m a bit offended by the Hollywood Bowl to be honest. Both christians and muslims can be offended by the pagan greek goddess symbol. The stars? Well, I suppose the anti-Hollywood crowd might take offense. I suppose that leaves us with engineering instruments. Oh wait…the flat earthers and creationists might be offended by that. And should we then go on and look at every cities seal in the nation…to make sure they are all up to snuff from a PC perspective?? How much is THAT going to cost us…and for what??
Where does this bullshit stop? I’m an athiest (well, an agnostic, but pretty much the same thing), so I don’t believe in any of that crap anyway. I don’t GIVE a shit if Los Angeles has a tiny cross with stars and farm animals on it. Hell, I didn’t even know what my HOME cities seal was until this stupid thing started and I looked it up, though I’ve seen it on letter head and police cars before. It simply never registered…and why should it??
I don’t see why a symbol thats been in use for decades needs to be changed to be politically correct, when we are talking about something so insignificant. Where was the huge outcry against this thing BEFORE it became news? According to the bottom of the cite, the symbol was adopted in 1957. We’ve been living in a PC world since at least the 90’s…are they just now getting around to this??
-XT
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/30 "2004-06-03T19:08:52Z")
Just because it has gone either unnoticed or unchallenged for a long time doesn’t mean it’s legal or right.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/31 "2004-06-03T19:20:40Z")
IS it illegal though? I suppose we’ll find out. My guess is…no, its not ‘illegal’. Is it right? I don’t see why not. Its merely a symbol that acknowledges the past contributions of missionaries in the state and its influence in the early days of the city. Its not a symbol saying that LA is a CHRISTIAN city (if it was, they would have made the cross the prominent feature of the seal, instead of stuffing it off in a box with the stars and the Hollywood Bowl), any more than the greek goddess is a symbol stating that the city is pagan. The whole thing to me is completely ridiculous. As I said, where does it end? We go through every city and state Seal and clip out any references to religion. Then we go back and clip out any other offensive imagery. Then when the next wave of PC hits, we need to go back again, to re-examine them all and clip out any images that were ok to us now, but are offensive in the future. I can’t think of a more silly way to piss a great deal of money away to no real purpose than this.
-XT
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### Author:  [@PetW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PetW)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/32 "2004-06-03T19:44:20Z")
By the way, in case anybody is confused, vegan is not a religion. As far as the constitution is concerned, the state is free to endorse carnivorousness (goofy word, I know)
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### Author:  [@PetW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PetW)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/33 "2004-06-03T19:45:33Z")
And that should be “veganism.”
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### Author:  [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/34 "2004-06-03T20:04:30Z")
> [@jebert](#):
>
> The symbol of the City of St. Louis is a mounted figure of Louis IX holding a sword upside down by its blade so that the hilt resembles a cross. That will clearly have to go as well.
One symbol of the City of St Louis is St Louis mounted on a charger. The official seal of the City, however, contains [a steamboat](http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/mayor/)
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/35 "2004-06-03T20:05:40Z")
Last I checked, the Flat Earth Society and the Green Party weren’t religions either. However, symbols can still be offensive to various groups. I’m unsure that a symbol representing a historical impact falls under the SOCAS, and even if it does it seems silly to me to allow such a little thing to blow up to such proportions as this. And why LA? There are other city Seals with religious symbols on this (someone pointed out St. Louis earlier) after all.
To me, this is more a publicity stunt. After all, where was the huge movement of people BEFORE this screeching that they were offended by the cross on the Seal??
-XT
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### Author:  [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/36 "2004-06-03T20:18:14Z")
> [@jebert](#):
>
> And while we’re changing the name of Los Angeles, we’ll have to change the names of several other cities named after religious icons. St. Louis, St. Paul…
Well, I don’t advocate changing the name of Los Angeles, but if you did you could always take the Kentucky Fried Chicken route and just say the name of the city is now officially LA.
But as far as the others? I most definitely advocate changing the name of St. Paul. To be more specific, I want them to change it _back_. Pig’s Eye was a much more interesting name for the place. 😃
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/37 "2004-06-03T20:32:39Z")
> [@Survivor](#):
>
> I’d like to see it gone too… Yeah, a “tiny Cross” **is** that offensive to me…
As we’ve established that nothing is too trivial to make a huge fuss over, I’d like to point out that the months of January, February, March, April, May and June are named after Pagan deities (a legacy of the Roman pagans), and the appearance of the names of these months on any government document or monument therefore constitutes an establishment of religion. What is more, all the days of the week are named after pagan deities from the Roman and Norse/Germanic pantheons, so the use of these names in any government document, memorial or function should be strictly forbidden, as it consititutes a horrible and intolerable threat to religious liberty that every enlightened, progressive intellectual surely must oppose. For that matter, the Gregorian calendar is a creation of the Roman church, and was foisted upon us by our hated British oppressors in our colonial days. No Popery! Down with King George! Bring back the Julian calendar!
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/38 "2004-06-03T20:58:24Z")
> [@AskNott](#):
>
> If the cross were on a corporate trademark or somebody’s family seal, I’d have no problem with it. It isn’t, though. It’s on the seal of a governmental body. It’s displayed in courtrooms, and in the county police station. It is an LA County endorsement of a particular religion. It might as well say, “Abandon hope, all ye Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, and Muslims. If you ain’t Christian, you don’t rate.” That’s why it’s unconstitutional. … .
Please cite specific facts and sources of information to show that there is or has been serious, massive persecution and oppression of non-Christians in LA as a result of a teensy, tiny, little bitty cross on the city’s seal.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/39 "2004-06-03T21:06:10Z")
> [@PetW](#):
>
> carnivorousness (goofy word, I know)
Hey!
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### Author:  [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-tiny-cross-that-offensive/248365/40 "2004-06-03T21:08:00Z")
> [@jebert](#):
>
> And while we’re changing the name of Los Angeles, we’ll have to change the names of several other cities named after religious icons. St. Louis, St. Paul, St. Petersburg, San Francisco, San Diego, and a host of other Sans and Santas are all named after Christian figures, saints at that. Let’s be sure to get them all so we only have to change the maps and signs once.
Here’s a list of California cities with religious names, [taken from a Yahoo directory:](http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/U_S__States/California/Cities/)
Angels Camp
Angelus Oaks
Cathedral City
Guadalupe
Los Angeles
Mission Hills
Mission Viejo
North San Juan
Rancho Santa Fe
Rancho Santa Margarita
San Andreas
San Anselmo
San Bernardino
San Bruno
San Carlos
San Clemente
San Diego
San Dimas
San Fernando
San Francisco
San Gabriel
San Geronimo
San Gregorio
San Jacinto
San Joaquin
San Jose
San Juan Bautista
San Juan Capistrano
San Leandro
San Lorenzo
San Luis Obispo
San Luis Rey
San Marcos
San Marino
San Martin
San Mateo
San Miguel
San Onofre
San Pablo
San Pedro
San Quentin
San Rafael
San Ramon
San Simeon
San Ysidro
Santa Ana
Santa Ana Heights
Santa Barbara
Santa Clara
Santa Clarita
Santa Cruz
Santa Fe Springs
Santa Margarita
Santa Maria
Santa Monica
Santa Paula
Santa Rosa
Santa Ynez
Santa Ysabel
I might have missed a few, but in any case it’s a huge list. I never heard of anyone feeling oppressed because of the name of the city they live in, and that’s a much more obvious thing than a seal that hardly anyone pays attention to.
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