# Is a "vast upper middle class" impossible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832 "2010-08-10T15:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/1 "2010-08-10T15:35:07Z")
In [this article,](http://www.salon.com/news/economics/index.html?story=/opinion/feature/2010/08/03/myth_upper_middle_class) Michael Lind argues that conservative and liberal pundits have been misleading the American people for decades with their respective visions of a path to upper-middle-class status for nearly all – conservatives, investment in the stock market; liberals, higher education. Most people who have money invested have it in negligible amounts; as for education, the more people have it, the less it’s worth in the job market – there are only so many high-paying professional jobs available. > [@](#): > > For a generation, most Americans have been told by left, right and center that they would be failures if they ended their educations with high school, worked hard, saved cash for emergencies and bought modest homes they could afford. They have been told that to succeed in life they need to ape the lifestyles of the upper middle class that provides most of America’s politicians, pundits and scholars. > > The result has been an experiment in social engineering that has gone horribly wrong: the creation of a faux mass upper middle class. Millions of Americans who by objective standards belong to the working class or lower middle class have persuaded themselves that they are part of the professional-investor elite, because they have worthless degrees from diploma mills, negligible amounts invested in stocks, and suburban trophy houses they cannot afford. For the college graduates at Starbucks working to pay off student loans for degrees that they will never use, as for the millions of Americans who are now “underwater,” owing more on their mortgages than their houses are worth, the American dream has turned into a nightmare. > > \ > > The alternative to the mass upper-middle-class fantasy peddled by Republicans and New Democrats is a return to the older New Deal liberal approach, based on high wages and adequate social insurance. Working Americans should not need to go into debt to obtain college diplomas, in order to share more of the gains of national economic growth in the form of higher wages. And there would be less pressure on working Americans to gamble with their money in the stock market, if Social Security, like public pensions in the rest of the world, replaced a higher percentage of pre-retirement income than the 30-40 percent it replaces today. > > An America with a college-educated professional class majority was always a fantasy. So was an America with a majority of affluent day traders. The America we need is one in which all Americans are paid a living wage and guaranteed a comfortable retirement – even if they didn’t go to a university and don’t own stocks and bonds. Is this true? Is an upper-middle-class society impossible? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/2 "2010-08-10T15:48:26Z")
I would tend to agree that it is impossible, at least at this point. There always has to be some distribution of labor based upon the needs of society, and we’re not at a point where a majority, or at least plurality, can be upper-middle class type jobs. We still need a large number of lower and working class jobs. That’s not to say that I don’t think we’ve taken steps in that direction, with many jobs that used to be occupied by lower and working class people now occupied by machines and, thus, effectively replaced by middle and upper class workers who design, maintain, or operate these machines. However, this shift seems much more directly tied to advances in technology than investment or education. I think he correctly points out the paradox of our current education system, of encouraging youth to get a higher education that is expensive, in both direct cost and lost time in job experience, which saturates the market and ultimately reduces the value of that education. So, I think it may be possible, but I think the best way to encourage it is through advancements and additional applications of technology to create those jobs to create opportunities for these individuals, otherwise, all we’re doing is increasing supply with a relatively steady demand. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/3 "2010-08-10T15:50:54Z")
It depends on what is meant by “upper middle class”? If it means people in a particular percentile of wealth, then no, it’s not possible. There will always be a distribution of wealth in any approximately free society. If it means a particular absolute standard of living, then it is definitely possible. Less wealthy people of today have a much higher standard of living than wealthy people of a century ago. Air-conditioned homes, fresh fruits and vegetables during all seasons, instant communication and fast travel are all easily available today, compared to more or less impossible at that time. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/4 "2010-08-10T15:54:37Z")
In a way it is, because the goal posts move. We HAVE a ‘vast upper middle class’ right now…compared to the economic and social structure in the US a century ago. Or compared to many 3rd world countries. The trouble is, the goal posts have shifted, and what was (or is in other countries) ‘rich’ is now considered ‘upper middle class’, while ‘rich’ now means something completely different. So, yeah…it’s impossible, unless you define exactly what ‘upper middle class’ is and then leave the bar there, unmoving. If you are having to constantly shift it around then the term itself is meaningless. BTW, I would say that both liberals and conservatives are correct…higher education coupled with wise investment (not directly in the stock market unless you know what you are doing, but in 401K’s, IRA’s, mutual funds, T-Bills and bonds…i.e. in a diverse mix of investments, maybe even some real estate), as well as discipline in spending, will certainly make one wealthy, or at least ‘upper middle class’. Hell, discipline in spending alone and careful investment will make even a lower class (whatever that is) blue collar type wealthy in the long run. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/5 "2010-08-10T16:08:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is an upper-middle-class society impossible? Impossible unless everyone changes (equalizes) their preferences for services or goods that require unequal talent and effort. Otherwise, you’ll end up with a [Power Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution) or [bell curve](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution) distribution. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/6 "2010-08-10T16:50:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > # In a way it is, because the goal posts move. We HAVE a ‘vast upper middle class’ right now…compared to the economic and social structure in the US a century ago. Or compared to many 3rd world countries. The trouble is, the goal posts have shifted, and what was (or is in other countries) ‘rich’ is now considered ‘upper middle class’, while ‘rich’ now means something completely different. > > XT +1 If you are one of the 80 million Mexicans dreaming of crossing the Arizona desert, or a Chinese immigrant stuffed into a shipping container, or a starving African looking at Baywatch billboards in Nairobi, we have a vast UPPER class that they can only dream about. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/7 "2010-08-10T17:17:19Z")
I think what is impossible is that idea that everyone has, should have, deserves, or will get upward mobility. Or that you can/should buy the appearance of it - which is good enough. One of his first arguments is that we’ve been convinced we shouldn’t live in “houses we can afford” - but many, many Americans do. Not everyone is spending themselves into faux affluence. THAT may be the bill of goods we’ve been sold - that what you HAVE is an indication of what you are WORTH. Obviously, as has been pointed out, you can’t have an “upper middle class” society by income statistics. Or you can - if you include the rest of the world, in which case - again as has been pointed out - you already have one. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/8 "2010-08-10T17:17:43Z")
What sense would it make for government _or_ business to create such a huge cohort of financially independent individuals? They would be very difficult to influence or control. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/9 "2010-08-10T17:22:10Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > If it means a particular absolute standard of living, then it is definitely possible. Less wealthy people of today have a much higher standard of living than wealthy people of a century ago. Air-conditioned homes, fresh fruits and vegetables during all seasons, instant communication and fast travel are all easily available today, compared to more or less impossible at that time. Well . . . It is debatable (and this is as good a place as any to debate it) whether it is **materially** possible for a majority of the world’s people to enjoy what we in the industrialized countries think of as an upper-middle-class standard of living, given the limits of Earth’s environment and resources. (Lind himself [has argued that question in the affirmative.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264849)) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/10 "2010-08-10T17:50:54Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > One of his first arguments is that we’ve been convinced we shouldn’t live in “houses we can afford” - but many, many Americans do. Not everyone is spending themselves into faux affluence. THAT may be the bill of goods we’ve been sold - that what you HAVE is an indication of what you are WORTH. I agree … I am more than a little pissed off, because mrAru and I live in a house we could afford [we spent $99 000, the jackass realtor kept trying to shove us into $200 000 + houses … on a Navy income. We successfully resisted and got something we could afford] and have never missed a payment on it - and all the jackasses that went for the overpriced houses they couldn’t afford get to have bailouts now. So much for living on one’s income. We don’t have credit cards - if it isn’t in the bank, we don’t buy whatever. Our cars are paid for, so no debt there either. Not that I dislike our life, but I would love to actually have a little luxury in our life =( ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/11 "2010-08-10T17:58:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > If it means a particular absolute standard of living, then it is definitely possible. Less wealthy people of today have a much higher standard of living than wealthy people of a century ago. Air-conditioned homes, fresh fruits and vegetables during all seasons, instant communication and fast travel are all easily available today, compared to more or less impossible at that time. > > Well . . . It is debatable (and this is as good a place as any to debate it) whether it is **materially** possible for a majority of the world’s people to enjoy what we in the industrialized countries think of as an upper-middle-class standard of living, given the limits of Earth’s environment and resources. (Lind himself [has argued that question in the affirmative.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264849)) That is a good question, but is significantly different from the original post’s question. I think that the world as a whole could reach the current standard of living as the US. The current standard of living will become cheaper (in the absolute sense of requiring fewer resources per person) in the near term and the world population will be smaller in the long term, thus requiring few resources in total. And the way to achieve that is through greater education and sound personal and state finances. We need smart people with sufficient education to improve everything. And we need to spend our wealth wisely (note that “spending wealth” and “consuming resources” are equivalent). The OP-quote’s “high wages and adequate social insurance” is a consequence of good policies, not policies in themselves. We as a society cannot in the long run set high wages and adequate social insurance without sufficient resources to cover them. Wealth is generated by people and education is the best means for people to improve their capabilities to generate resources. And sound finances means using them. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ On rereading the OP-quote, I think I would dispute: > [@](#): > > For a generation, most Americans have been told by left, right and center that they would be failures if they ended their educations with high school, worked hard, saved cash for emergencies and bought modest homes they could afford. They have been told that to succeed in life they need to ape the lifestyles of the upper middle class that provides most of America’s politicians, pundits and scholars. Maybe my family was different, but we made good use of our educations, saved adequately, and bought homes within our means. We are certainly not rich, and some have had financial hard times, but that is a consequence of the unpredictability of life and not lack of prudence. For my spouse and myself, we avoided buying a home during the bubble because we knew the prices were unsustainably high. Once the prices dropped, we bought a home with a mortgage that one of our incomes could cover, to avoid the two-income trap. It doesn’t take a smart person to foresee the obvious possible results of one’s financial. But maybe that makes us the exceptions rather than the “most Americans”. I’d like to think better of my country. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/12 "2010-08-10T18:13:41Z")
Can anyone define “upper middle class” ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/13 "2010-08-11T01:19:40Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Can anyone define “upper middle class” ? Here’s one stab at it. From [_Class: A Guide Through the American Status System,_](http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253) by [Paul Fussell:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Fussell) > [@](#): > > My researches have persuaded me that there are nine classes in this country, as follows: > > ## Top out-of-sight Upper Upper middle > > ## Middle High proletarian Mid-proletarian Low proletarian > > Destitute > Bottom out-of-sight > > [[shortened quote]] > We now come to the upper-middle class. It may possess virtually as much as the two classes above it. The difference is that it has earned most of it, in law, medicine, oil, shipping, real estate, or even the more honorific kinds of trade, like buying and selling works of art. Although they may enjoy some inherited money and use inherited “things” (silver, Oriental rugs), the upper-middles suffer from a bourgeois sense of shame, a conviction that to live on the earnings of others, even forebears, is not nice. > > Caste marks of the upper-middles would include living in a house with more rooms than you need, except perhaps when a lot of “overnight guests” are present to help you imitate upper-class style. . . . This class is also the most “role-reversed” of all: men think nothing of cooking and doing housework, women of working out of the house in journalism, theater, or real estate. (If the wife stays home all the time, the family’s middle-class only.) Upper-middles like to show off their costly educations by naming their cats Spinoza, Clytemnestra, and Candide, which means, as you’ll have inferred already, that it’s in large part the class depicted by Lisa Birnbach and others’ Official Preppy Handbook, that significantly popular artifact of 1980. > [[shortened quote]] [/quote] In the last chapter, Fussell identifies a tenth class, a “Class X” of declassed intellectuals and bohemians. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/14 "2010-08-11T06:22:56Z")
**BrainGlutton** , that excerpt was way too long. I shortened it to the begin and the paragraphs you bolded. Please don’t quote any more than you need to from copyrighted sources. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/15 "2010-08-11T06:37:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It depends on what is meant by “upper middle class”? If it means people in a particular percentile of wealth, then no, it’s not possible. There will always be a distribution of wealth in any approximately free society. > > If it means a particular absolute standard of living, then it is definitely possible. Less wealthy people of today have a much higher standard of living than wealthy people of a century ago. Air-conditioned homes, fresh fruits and vegetables during all seasons, instant communication and fast travel are all easily available today, compared to more or less impossible at that time. Are you kidding. a century ago was the time of the robber barons, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockerfeller, and others were amassing incredible fortunes and built palatial mansions, sometimes several of them. It was the guilded age. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/16 "2010-08-11T11:22:06Z")
Upper middle class affluence and status should be viewed as a personal achievement, rather than an entitlement, or something that the government can provide for most Americans. In order to achieve that one probably needs a professional degree from a fairly exclusive university. If that is not an option, one should think about going to a trade school. What one needs are marketable job skills. I have read that two thirds of colleges and universities accept everyone who applies with a high school degree and tuition money. A degree from one of those places in the humanities or social sciences is not very useful. One who is interested in the humanities and social sciences, as I am, should study them one one’s own. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/17 "2010-08-11T12:31:13Z")
FWIW, I think this is a very interesting OP. Is it possible, given something approaching a standard distro of talent, motivation, etc, combined with a fixed number of resources, to actually have that vast middle class? The only way I could see it working, at the country level, is to do what Kuwait does (or maybe did…) and use their oil wealth to import bigtime numbers of indentured servants and near-slaves from other countries to support the natives. In other words, I guess I’m saying that for there to be an upper/middle class, there needs to be lower classes to do the grunt work and/or get exploited, depending on your POV. I guess the US could (and does?) use Mexicans for that role. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/18 "2010-08-11T13:01:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > FWIW, I think this is a very interesting OP. > > Is it possible, given something approaching a standard distro of talent, motivation, etc, combined with a fixed number of resources, to actually have that vast middle class? The only way I could see it working, at the country level, is to do what Kuwait does (or maybe did…) and use their oil wealth to import bigtime numbers of indentured servants and near-slaves from other countries to support the natives. > > In other words, I guess I’m saying that for there to be an upper/middle class, there needs to be lower classes to do the grunt work and/or get exploited, depending on your POV. I guess the US could (and does?) use Mexicans for that role. The Germans used Turks, and the second and third generation Turks now want to be upper class Germans. After all, they grew up in Germany, speak German, went to German schools and deserve the same opportunities as ethnic Germans. In the U.S. in certain places it causing a cultural issue - some immigrant populations really value their kids educations - so (gross generalizations ahead) the Chinese and Indians who originally showed up on H1-B visas now have U.S. citizen kids - and frankly there are a lot of “ethnic Americans” who don’t value education. So guess who is going to end up being the underclass to whom? (second disclaimer: I personally don’t think this is a bad thing, but I’ve listened to my coworkers resentment over it - yeah - Li’s son spent six hours a day studying and playing the violin while she stood over him making sure he did it, while yours knows every episode of The Simpson’s by heart…don’t blame her and her kid. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/19 "2010-08-11T13:48:15Z")
The average affluence of North Americans has increased dramatically over the last century. Obviously, we can never have a “vast upper middle class” if it is a comparative definition, any more than we can have all our children be above average … but we certainly can increase the average, and in terms of material wealth, we have. Where I agree with the article is this: that our expectations have increased even more than the actual increase in prosperity. Just look at the sorts of material goods the “average” person thinks they cannot live without; it takes considerable income to afford all that stuff. Also, look at the level of luxury that is routinely depicted in the _background_ of TV commercials, sitcoms and the like. People seeing that to a certain degree absorb the notion that this is how the average person lives. I’m a lawyer who works in a big firm and thus I guess I’m “upper middle class” myself; I find it difficult to afford a car (together with insurance etc.), a modest 3 bedroom house, various electronic devices like a new computer, child expenses, vacations, etc. all while saving for retirement, investment and education. I don’t consider any of that _particularly_ luxurious. How on earth can the “average” person in my city afford all that stuff, when I find it tough? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832/20 "2010-08-11T14:21:32Z")
Depends on what you care about. Do you care about people’s absolute level of well-being? Or are you only concerned about relative status? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-a-vast-upper-middle-class-impossible/549832.md?page=2)