# Is abortion a "legal form" of genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761 "2009-08-17T18:31:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/1 "2009-08-17T18:31:43Z")
Genocide takes away something that you don’t want to have exist on Earth for whatever reason it may be. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/2 "2009-08-17T18:34:25Z")
No. Genocide is a (more or less) organized attempt to kill as many members of a particular ethnic or religious group as possible, at least in a particular region where they are considered undesirable. I’m not sure how you can stretch that definition to fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/3 "2009-08-17T18:37:58Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > No. Genocide is a (more or less) organized attempt to kill as many members of a particular ethnic or religious group as possible, at least in a particular region where they are considered undesirable. I’m not sure how you can stretch that definition to fetuses. This. Now, if forced abortion were being used by a government to reduce the numbers of an specific group–say, if all black babies, or all babies thought to be genetically predisposed to homosexuality or so forth–then my answer might be different. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/4 "2009-08-17T18:42:59Z")
It is the legal termination of pregnancies. Need better thread topic. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/5 "2009-08-17T18:47:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It is the legal termination of pregnancies. Need better thread topic. No, no, no. You’re supposed to say the exact same thing I said, except more wordily, and then curse my name when you realize I beat you to the punch. Didn’t you get the memo? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/6 "2009-08-17T18:52:03Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Genocide takes away something that you don’t want to have exist on Earth for whatever reason it may be. Which is why it’s such a useful word – it applies to all sorts of situations. “Honey, can you perform genocide on the cat box?” “Can’t, I’m about to start a genocide in the garage, on those old boxes from your dad’s house.” “Guess I’m going to have to genocide our sex life, then.” ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/7 "2009-08-17T18:57:18Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Genocide takes away something that you don’t want to have exist on Earth for whatever reason it may be. Yes absolutely. Any thought that pops into your head is a Universal Truth. Actually, I had never thought about the abortion debate until you started this thread so I am indebted to you. I will never have an abortion or commit genocide ever, ever! And it’s all thanks to you. ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/8 "2009-08-17T19:36:33Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > No. Genocide is a (more or less) organized attempt to kill as many members of a particular ethnic or religious group as possible, at least in a particular region where they are considered undesirable. I’m not sure how you can stretch that definition to fetuses. I would bet you if you broke down what “groups” had more abortions every year. You would see a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/9 "2009-08-17T19:37:38Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > I would bet you if you broke down what “groups” had more abortions every year. > > You would see a pattern. Pattern or not, that doesn’t make it genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Belrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@Belrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belrix)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/10 "2009-08-17T19:39:09Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > I would bet you if you broke down what “groups” had more abortions every year. > > You would see a pattern. In that case, I guess I’d extend “genocide” definition to requiring it to be one-group killing off another group. What your implying is choice within the ethnic group. I don’t think that would meet the usual use of the word, “genocide”. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/11 "2009-08-17T19:40:09Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > I would bet you if you broke down what “groups” had more abortions every year. > > You would see a pattern. Women? Oh my god, they’re killing unborn women! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/12 "2009-08-17T19:45:34Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > I would bet you if you broke down what “groups” had more abortions every year. > > You would see a pattern. From the [Guttmacher Institute](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) (relatively unbiased, WHO-approved) > [@](#): > > Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races. > [@](#): > > The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty\* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women While I do think much of the abortion debate is framed in terms of healthy white babies with selfish (potential) mothers, it’s difficult to think of genocide in terms of poor people deciding not to have children (or additional children) so that they can continue schooling, have a somewhat decent life or provide more for themselves and the children they already have. ETA: Naturally, I’m all for making contraception and reproductive health information and services accessible and free for women of every class and ethnic origin! ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/13 "2009-08-17T19:46:31Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Women? > > Oh my god, they’re killing unborn women! On an only slightly less sarcastic note, if you mean it’s racial - [“they” are pretty crappy at genocide](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html). The percentage gap in the races reported is only 2% for that year. Gotta get a lot better at it to call it “genocide” in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/14 "2009-08-17T19:53:17Z")
Abortion, legal or not, could be used as a technique to effect genocide, but it would be a mighty slow and inefficient technique. Massive bombing raids are a much faster and more efficient technique that could be used to effect genocide. Neither technique is, in and of itself, genocide. “Genocide,” by the way, is a word that has a clear, longstanding, and widely accepted definiton. Providing your own wrong definition doesn’t really help anyone. If genocide as defined isn’t what you mean, the thing to do is find another word or phrase that fits accurately. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/15 "2009-08-17T20:01:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > From the [Guttmacher Institute](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) (relatively unbiased, WHO-approved) > > Quote: > Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races. > > Quote: > The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty\* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women Interesting. So poverty-stricken women control their fertility via abortion, while women of means control their fertility via contraception. In either case, the growth rate of the group is deliberately (albeit voluntarily) being limited. Seems to me that voluntary abortion is no more genocidal than voluntary contraception. ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/16 "2009-08-17T20:03:38Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > From the [Guttmacher Institute](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) (relatively unbiased, WHO-approved) > > While I do think much of the abortion debate is framed in terms of healthy white babies with selfish (potential) mothers, it’s difficult to think of genocide in terms of poor people deciding not to have children (or additional children) so that they can continue schooling, have a somewhat decent life or provide more for themselves and the children they already have. > > ETA: Naturally, I’m all for making contraception and reproductive health information and services accessible and free for women of every class and ethnic origin! If you can’t afford your baby and you get an abortion that is political which is genocide. Even having an abortion because the baby is mentally retarded is genocide, the same if the baby will kill the mother (Devil’s Advocate) because you’re taking away nature’s course of life. I don’t agree with that. If a baby will kill the mother. I say abort it, because maybe she can get another chance to have a normal baby that won’t kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/17 "2009-08-17T20:05:01Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > “Genocide,” by the way, is a word that has a clear, longstanding, and widely accepted definiton. I’ve been thinking of writing a book to help people like the OP. It would be a big reference manual that would contain all the words in the English language, their pronunciations, parts of speech, definitions, and common usages. Just think- if a book like that existed, we wouldn’t _have_ threads like this! ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/18 "2009-08-17T20:06:49Z")
> [@Belrix](#): > > In that case, I guess I’d extend “genocide” definition to requiring it to be one-group killing off another group. What your implying is choice within the ethnic group. I don’t think that would meet the usual use of the word, “genocide”. Why do you limit the commission of genocide to a group? I think an individual person, given the means, can commit genocide by any reasonable definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/19 "2009-08-17T20:07:57Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Why do you limit the commission of genocide to a group? I think an individual person, given the means, can commit genocide by any reasonable definition of the word. You think one person can systematically seek to eliminate an entire ethnic or religious group? Who is this person with such power–Captain Marvel? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/20 "2009-08-17T20:08:18Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > If you can’t afford your baby and you get an abortion that is political which is genocide. > > Even having an abortion because the baby is mentally retarded is genocide, the same if the baby will kill the mother (Devil’s Advocate) because you’re taking away nature’s course of life. > > I don’t agree with that. If a baby will kill the mother. I say abort it, because maybe she can get another chance to have a normal baby that won’t kill her. If I had to put money on it, I’d say we’re in a **Sometimes Not** moment. On the off chance you’re being serious, aborting a baby is neither political nor genocidal. I seriously recommend looking up- well, _anything_- on genocide. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761.md?page=2)