# Is abortion a "legal form" of genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761 "2009-08-17T18:31:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/21 "2009-08-17T20:10:44Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > On an only slightly less sarcastic note, if you mean it’s racial - [“they” are pretty crappy at genocide](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html). The percentage gap in the races reported is only 2% for that year. Gotta get a lot better at it to call it “genocide” in my book. That is actually a pretty large gap - one third of all abortion seekers are black women, even though they’re only 10% of the (eligible) population. Of course, absent some evidence that they aren’t _voluntarily_ terminating their pregnancies, it’s still not genocide. > [@](#): > > I’ve been thinking of writing a book to help people like the OP. It would be a big reference manual that would contain all the words in the English language, their pronunciations, parts of speech, definitions, and common usages. Just think- if a book like that existed, we wouldn’t have threads like this! Don’t be so silly. That would _never_ work. ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/22 "2009-08-17T20:11:08Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Why do you limit the commission of genocide to a group? I think an individual person, given the means, can commit genocide by any reasonable definition of the word. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/23 "2009-08-17T20:15:23Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > If I had to put money on it, I’d say we’re in a **Sometimes Not** moment. > > On the off chance you’re being serious, aborting a baby is neither political nor genocidal. I seriously recommend looking up- well, _anything_- on genocide. How about a “solitaire-genocide” or “individual-genocide”. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/24 "2009-08-17T20:15:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That is actually a pretty large gap - one third of all abortion seekers are black women, even though they’re only 10% of the (eligible) population. But only 5% of black women had abortions in 2004, compared to 1% of white women. I’m saying we clearly need to be seeing some higher percentages if we’re going to be talking some real genocide. I guess the better-off women are committing genocide via contraception, going by **Joe** ’s conclusion. By that definition, I’ve been “genociding” daily for two decades now! Man, am I evil or what? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/25 "2009-08-17T20:16:31Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > How about a “solitaire-genocide” or “individual-genocide”. How about picking another word rather than twisting one into meaning something it’s not suited for? ---
**Author:** ![recessiveMeme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@recessiveMeme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/recessiveMeme)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/26 "2009-08-17T20:18:18Z")
[QUOTE=Chessic Sense] I’ve been thinking of writing a book to help people like the OP. It would be a big reference manual that would contain all the words in the English language, their pronunciations, parts of speech, definitions, and common usages. [/quote] We could call them “Wordonomicons!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/27 "2009-08-17T20:19:15Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > How about a “solitaire-genocide” or “individual-genocide”. They call that a homicide. Since the fetuses aren’t people, it’s not homicide. Call it foeticide, if you like. > [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > But only 5% of black women had abortions in 2004, compared to 1% of white women. I’m saying we clearly need to be seeing some higher percentages if we’re going to be talking some real genocide. Again, regardless of percentages, it’s not genocide because it’s voluntary. I was simply pointing out that there _is_ a sizeable disparity in abortion numbers by race. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/28 "2009-08-17T20:19:28Z")
I don’t understand why abortion could be genocide. I’ve read all of your posts, SSSN, and I can’t understand why being poor and not having a baby equals genocide. At all. What if you’re not poor and have an abortion merely because you don’t want to have a baby? ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/29 "2009-08-17T20:19:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > If I had to put money on it, I’d say we’re in a **Sometimes Not** moment. > > On the off chance you’re being serious, aborting a baby is neither political nor genocidal. I seriously recommend looking up- well, _anything_- on genocide. Even if a women just wants to get rid of a baby just to get rid of it. She is getting rid of her existence to pass on her genes. That is like Nazis getting getting rid of all the Jews, Christians, mentally-ill people, gay people, and trans-gender people to clean society of them. That is all genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/30 "2009-08-17T20:24:16Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > If you can’t afford your baby and you get an abortion that is political which is genocide. > > Even having an abortion because the baby is mentally retarded is genocide, the same if the baby will kill the mother (Devil’s Advocate) because you’re taking away nature’s course of life. > > I don’t agree with that. If a baby will kill the mother. I say abort it, because maybe she can get another chance to have a normal baby that won’t kill her. ‘A genocide of one’ isn’t an especially convincing theory. Obtaining an abortion due to economic reasoning isn’t a political statement, but I am almost interested in the tortured logic it would take to see it as such. Can you map it for me? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/31 "2009-08-17T20:25:57Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Even if a women just wants to get rid of a baby just to get rid of it. > > She is getting rid of her existence to pass on her genes. That is like Nazis getting getting rid of all the Jews, Christians, mentally-ill people, gay people, and trans-gender people to clean society of them. > > That is all genocide. How about intentionally not reproducing? Or only having one child, regardless of how many children one could potentially bear? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/32 "2009-08-17T20:26:34Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Even if a women just wants to get rid of a baby just to get rid of it. > > She is getting rid of her existence to pass on her genes. That is like Nazis getting getting rid of all the Jews, Christians, mentally-ill people, gay people, and trans-gender people to clean society of them. > > That is all genocide. [QUOTE=OED] **genocide** /jennsid/ _noun_ the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation. [/QUOTE] Unless each woman is aborting 500 babies (all fathered by men of the same race), no, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/33 "2009-08-17T20:29:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t be so silly. That would _never_ work. Well, apparently the one written by Mr. Webster isn’t meeting its objective in this case. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/34 "2009-08-17T20:30:03Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Even if a women just wants to get rid of a baby just to get rid of it. > > She is getting rid of her existence to pass on her genes. That is like Nazis getting getting rid of all the Jews, Christians, mentally-ill people, gay people, and trans-gender people to clean society of them. > > That is all genocide. Not even close. You said it yourself - she’s not terminating the pregnancy out of a desire to keep from passing on her genes, she’s terminating the pregnancy because she doesn’t want to continue _this_ pregnancy. She may already have children, or she may plan to have children in the future. How do you feel about people who have themselves surgically sterilized? Have they committed genocide because they won’t be passing on their genes? A false assertion (“abortion, even one abortion, is genocide”) doesn’t become true just because you keep repeating it. ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/35 "2009-08-17T20:30:42Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > How about intentionally not reproducing? Or only having one child, regardless of how many children one could potentially bear? I see what you are getting at. Like they do in China. Hey, if the human species wants to over populate the world with people. Why should it be stopped? The cycle of life is also destroying it too. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/36 "2009-08-17T20:31:25Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Even if a women just wants to get rid of a baby just to get rid of it. > > She is getting rid of her existence to pass on her genes. That is like Nazis getting getting rid of all the Jews, Christians, mentally-ill people, gay people, and trans-gender people to clean society of them. > > That is all genocide. No. She is at most delaying the decision to pass on her genes. In addition, if her siblings reproduce, the same genes will be passed on, not wiped from the Earth. Can we please not go down the Nazi path? I know it’s tempting but let us try to [del]stay[/del] get as close to logic as possible. Fetuses do not represent an entire ideological/religious/political population of people. It isn’t as if the Sudanese fetuses suddenly decided the Masalit fetuses were a useless bunch and needed to go, then formed a junta and set about medical clinics aborting them. ---
**Author:** ![recessiveMeme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@recessiveMeme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/recessiveMeme)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/37 "2009-08-17T20:37:00Z")
[QUOTE=Sometimes Sober Sometimes Not] Hey, if the human species wants to over populate the world with people. Why should it be stopped? [/QUOTE] “Stopped” in the sense that some external force will stop it or “stopped” in the sense that a lot of humans who are currently alive get together in some forum and decide that we should procreate less in the interests of… Hey, if the moon were made of spareribs would you eat it? ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/38 "2009-08-17T20:39:52Z")
> [@recessiveMeme](#): > > Hey, if the moon were made of spareribs would you eat it? Aren’t spareribs a form of genocide, though? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/39 "2009-08-17T20:41:41Z")
Genocide goes _way_ too far - but eugenics doesn’t, especially when we talk about the abortion of the mentally retarded. Even a lot of otherwise pro-choice people seem troubled over this - Ted Kennedy, reflecting his family’s longstanding support for the retarded, introduced legislation a few years ago mandating counseling for women seeking termination of a pregnancy because of Down syndrome. It didn’t pass, but surely indicates where his feelings are on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/40 "2009-08-17T20:42:08Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Even if a women just wants to get rid of a baby just to get rid of it. > > She is getting rid of her existence to pass on her genes. That is like Nazis getting getting rid of all the Jews, Christians, mentally-ill people, gay people, and trans-gender people to clean society of them. > > That is all genocide. OK, so in your world, one woman deciding on her own that she doesn’t want to have a fifth baby is on par with a massive national program to involuntarily exterminate all seizable members of a particular ethnic/social group. :rolleyes: You seem to have a bone to pick with abortion alone, and quite oddly, it appears to stem from an opposition to population control, rather than the usual objection to the murder of unborn human beings. So I’ll ask my question again: \*\*How is controlling one’s fertility via abortion any more genocidal than controlling one’s fertility via contraception? Or abstinence? Or compulsive masturbation? Or homosexual intercourse?\*\* Or any other sort of activity that deliberately seeks to avoid producing a baby? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761.md?page=3)