# Is abortion a "legal form" of genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761 "2009-08-17T18:31:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/41 "2009-08-17T20:43:33Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Genocide takes away something that you don’t want to have exist on Earth for whatever reason it may be. Not only “no,” but “hell no,” and in fact, not only “hell no,” but “hell no, not even close.” Genocide has a pattern, and it’s done by one group of people to another with the purpose of exterminating the victim group. Abortions aren’t targeted at a specific group and they are not intended to exterminate all fetuses. Abortions end individual pregnancies. If a group of people were being forced into having abortions you could say that was an act of genocide, but it’s an unlikely type because it’s so inefficient. Compare to forced sterilization, for example - and that’s been done to several groups in history. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/42 "2009-08-17T20:45:13Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > Can we please not go down the Nazi path? Too late: [Godwin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) sends his greetings. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/43 "2009-08-17T20:45:34Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Not even close. You said it yourself - she’s not terminating the pregnancy out of a desire to keep from passing on her genes, she’s terminating the pregnancy because she doesn’t want to continue _this_ pregnancy. She may already have children, or she may plan to have children in the future. > > How do you feel about people who have themselves surgically sterilized? Have they committed genocide because they won’t be passing on their genes? > > A false assertion (“abortion, even one abortion, is genocide”) doesn’t become true just because you keep repeating it. Stopping the cycle of life is just the same as stopping a whole group of people from living because you don’t want them to continue on Earth. Even if she had ten billion kids. Let them fend for themselves if she can’t afford them A.K.A. giving them up for adoption. Hey, if a person wants to sterilized themselves for whatever reason. They weren’t destine to have children and pass on their genes. They would probably make horrible parents because they are selfish anyway, because they got sterilized so they wouldn’t get pregnant and have organisms. You can’t blame them. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/44 "2009-08-17T20:51:21Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > Too late: [Godwin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) sends his greetings. 😃 I know. It is distressing to me. “Nazi” is a very powerful word but it is being bandied about so often that how truly horrible a thing it was is starting to lose its impact. Using it in jest is one thing. Using it like this is stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/45 "2009-08-17T20:53:06Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Stopping the cycle of life is just the same as stopping a whole group of people from living because you don’t want them to continue on Earth. You have provided skant evidence of the first part of this sentence (stopping the cycle of life). What, short of a cataclysmic nuclear holocast, do you think is capable of this? You’re equating “17 year old girl having an abortion” with “termination of all life as we know it”?! ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/46 "2009-08-17T20:53:33Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Stopping the cycle of life is just the same as stopping a whole group of people from living because you don’t want them to continue on Earth. Look, even “stopping a whole group of people from living” isn’t necessarily genocide. Far more often, it’s mass murder. There’s a reason we have different words for different things: they’re _different_. If you’re anti-abortion, you can just say so. You don’t make your case any stronger by trying to equate it with something it’s utterly not. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/47 "2009-08-17T21:13:23Z")
I _think_ what he’s trying to say is something like this: Pretending the Bible is literally true for a second, just because it makes it easier, if Abraham (well, okay, Sarah) had aborted Isaac he/she would have committed preemptive genocide against an entire people, specifically Israel/Jews (keep in mind that I’m merely trying to grasp HIS argument and I’m not arguing anything). I think what he’s attempting to say (poorly, I might add) is that aborting someone is bad because they may be the one that gives birth to the line which eventually becomes the precursors of a new racial group, and, as such, you are potentially committing genocide against that unnamed, unspecified, possibly non-existent (after all, the kid could just end up getting hit by a car and dying) racial group. Is your argument somewhere around there S3N? ---
**Author:** ![recessiveMeme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@recessiveMeme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/recessiveMeme)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/48 "2009-08-17T21:15:25Z")
[QUOTE=Heart of Dorkness] If you’re anti-abortion, you can just say so. You don’t make your case any stronger by trying to equate it with something it’s utterly not. [/QUOTE] Ah, but you have not grasped the subtle genius of **SSSN** ’s strategy. You see, once you’ve accepted that abortion and genocide are equivalent you must either endorse genocide or reject abortion. You can’t possibly win! …you’re willing to accept the equivalence of those two things, right? I mean, the whole case pretty much rests on that point. Be a pal, willya? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/49 "2009-08-17T21:20:06Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I _think_ what he’s trying to say is something like this: > > Pretending the Bible is literally true for a second, just because it makes it easier, if Abraham (well, okay, Sarah) had aborted Isaac he/she would have committed preemptive genocide against an entire people, specifically Israel/Jews (keep in mind that I’m merely trying to grasp HIS argument and I’m not arguing anything). I think what he’s attempting to say (poorly, I might add) is that aborting someone is bad because they may be the one that gives birth to the line which eventually becomes the precursors of a new racial group, and, as such, you are potentially committing genocide against that unnamed, unspecified, possibly non-existent (after all, the kid could just end up getting hit by a car and dying) racial group. > > Is your argument somewhere around there S3N? I have heard the argument forwarded before. “What if you’re aborting the scientist that cures cancer?!” I usually respond with What if I’m aborting the next Jeffry Dahmer? It’s ridiculous to forward a theory about what a child _might_ be based solely on its genetics. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/50 "2009-08-17T21:21:36Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > That is all genocide. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/51 "2009-08-17T21:26:34Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > ‘A genocide of one’ isn’t an especially convincing theory. How about ‘Genecide all you can be’? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/52 "2009-08-17T22:26:54Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Stopping the cycle of life is just the same as stopping a whole group of people from living because you don’t want them to continue on Earth. As a couple of other people have said, if you’re against abortion - for whatever reason - just say so. Until you make such a statement, you’re still wrong. Genocide requires an element of intent, specifically the intent to eradicate a specific group of people. Having an abortion, as has been explained to you, is not equivalent, since it doesn’t preclude the same woman (or couple, for that matter) from having reproduced previously or from reproducing later. There are these neat things called “dictionaries.” You might find these discussions more satisfying if you familiarized yourself with one before formulating your next post. > [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Even if she had ten billion kids. Let them fend for themselves if she can’t afford them A.K.A. giving them up for adoption. You think “letting them fend for themselves” is equivalent to “adoption?” I think it’s more equivalent to “abandoning them in the woods.” Adoption, by definition, means that a child ends up with a family to take care of it - not exactly “fending for itself.” Once again, this word does not mean what you think it means. > [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Hey, if a person wants to sterilized themselves for whatever reason. They weren’t destine to have children and pass on their genes. They would probably make horrible parents because they are selfish anyway, because they got sterilized so they wouldn’t get pregnant and have organisms. You can’t blame them. So tell me, how do you know that a sterilized person was “destined” not to be a parent? For that matter, how do you know that such a person is motivated by selfishness? Heck, if some Prime Mover has destined that Jane Schmo is not destined to have children, then how can you ascribe her desire for sterilization to something as mundane as “selfishness?” After all, she’s simply carrying out the will of something far greater than any of us mere mortals. Finally, what exactly is wrong with wanting to have sex that results in _orgasms_\* instead of _organisms_\*\*? \*What I think (hope) you meant. \*\*What you said. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/53 "2009-08-17T23:34:50Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > As a couple of other people have said, if you’re against abortion - for whatever reason - just say so. Until you make such a statement, you’re still wrong. You are missing the point, if he fails to convince us all that one woman having an abortion is exactly the same as killing all the jews then how is he ever going to get abortion banned! ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Violaceous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Miss\_Violaceous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Violaceous)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/54 "2009-08-18T02:39:57Z")
1. Abortion 2. ??? 3. Genocide! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/55 "2009-08-18T05:27:45Z")
> [@recessiveMeme](#): > > Hey, if the moon were made of spareribs would you eat it? Not in one sitting! Duh!!! (And only if the ribs were topped with green cheese). ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/56 "2009-08-18T05:32:59Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Hey, if a person wants to sterilized themselves for whatever reason. They weren’t destine to have children and pass on their genes. They would probably make horrible parents because they are selfish anyway, because they got sterilized so they wouldn’t get pregnant and have organisms. You can’t blame them. Hey, if a person wants to abort their pregnancy for whatever reason, they weren’t destined to have children and pass on their genes. They would probably make horrible parents because they are selfish anyway, because they got an abortion so they wouldn’t get pregnant and have organisms. You can’t blame them. (Except for the fact they have committed genocide, of course. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:) ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/57 "2009-08-18T05:41:23Z")
\ Moved to _Great Debates_. IMHO \> GD \ ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/58 "2009-08-18T06:29:01Z")
Genocide is a poor word choice because the only thing the dead have in common is not being born, which isn’t as rigid a grouping as the word suggests. Massacre comes closer to the mark, being as there is no implication that the people “intentionally killing of a considerable number of human beings” are a distinct group from those who are killed. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/59 "2009-08-18T09:32:25Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Thank you. I’m not agreeing with you in any way, shape, or form. I’m basically nitpicking **Belrix** said, and I’ll elaborate below in response to **Skald** ’s comment. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You think one person can systematically seek to eliminate an entire ethnic or religious group? Who is this person with such power–Captain Marvel? Captain Marvel could do it, yeah. I’m not saying that this is something that has happened in the real world. But if a single person killed off a significant portion of a given population with the intention of reducing or removing that population from the world or an area, yeah, I’d call that genocide. At the risk of Godwinizing the thread, I might accuse Adolf Hitler personally with the crime of genocide. I will admit to not knowing the history well enough to be sure of that accusation, but it seems to me that without his impetus, the Holocaust might not have happened, or at least not in such an extreme way. ---
**Author:** ![Belrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@Belrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belrix)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761/60 "2009-08-18T16:14:50Z")
After this and SSSN’s other thread, I’ve come to set of semi-related theories: 1. (S)he’s young 2. or trolling 3. or deliberately obtuse (see 2.) 4. or unintentionally obtuse. Either way, (s)he seems to have abandoned the other thread as to the cruelty and selfishness of all humans (which makes me think of a young, gothic, the-whole-world-sucks-and-we’re-doomed teen) and, I suspect, will abandon this thread, too. I think the abortion==genocide argument is at the heart of SSSN’s premise, though. Good interpretation, IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-abortion-a-legal-form-of-genocide/506761.md?page=4)