Is abortion a sin?

Great Debates
21

I’m with Goo on this one. I do think a foetus is human, but I also think a woman has a right to end its life. I certainly don’t think it has the right to end hers.

People jump up and down about abortion, but they still support the death penalty (which we know has killed the wrong people), killing in war, etc. Yes - the z/e/f may be an “innocent” thing, but it is also in many ways a less “significant” thing than an outside-womb human.

It does not affect the world like an outside-womb human does. It also - unlike an “enemy” solider, say - does not have dependent family etc. It is a life, but it is a potential life - I see it as far less loss to the world to “blot” that life out before it starts than to negatively impact the lives of already-outside-womb humans, and possibly the z/e/f/baby itself.

That said, in terms of abortion I really only advocate early-term abortions, I do think it becomes less moral, more “uncomfortable” as the foetus is older and more viable outside-womb (eg 6/7/8 months). However where the mother’s life is at risk, or the foetus is hideously impaired or dying, then I have no problem with late-term abortions.

In terms of religion: if you believe in God, and I do, and if you believe that souls go back to God at death, and I do, then the z/e/f’s soul just goes back to its Creator. If however you believe in Original Sin, and that the z/e/f’s soul is already hell-bound without baptism etc, then yes, it’s a much less comfortable scenario.

22

So you’re saying that the unborn is a living human, but that the mother should feel free to end its life, if she so chooses? For whatever reason? All without the benefit of any sort of due process, or anything close to it? That her personal desired – whatever they may be – trump the most fundamental of all human rights, namely, the right to life? The one right without which all other rights, aspirations and desires become utterly meaningless?

Criminy.

23

—All without the benefit of any sort of due process, or anything close to it? That her personal desired – whatever they may be – trump the most fundamental of all human rights, namely, the right to life?—

Perhaps Goo thinks that human rights do not apply to the unborn the same way as they do to others. Or perhaps he doesn’t think that human rights are binary: that you either have them or you don’t.

It seems silly to debate whether a fetus is alive and human. It’s both. But neither of those qualities, by themselves, translate directly into the same reasoning we used when we decided that human beings have inaliable rights. And that question still remains to be addressed.

24

Apos - you’ve put my thoughts in a way I didn’t manage to. Yes, I would be of the opinion that it’s human, but that it doesn’t have the same rights as an outside-womb human.

I realise many pro-lifers/anti-abortioners are against all killing - including the death penalty.

But I do find it strange that a large contingent (eg some of the far right) hugely support the death penalty - thus taking the right of life/death into their own hands, while being massively anti-abortion because “only God shalt take life” or whatever.

Equally the more left-wing position of some whereby they feel the death-penalty is wrong, but abortion is OK, could also be accused of illogic.

25

Sinfully delicious. mmmmmmmmmm, foetastic!

26

i need some educating as each time i come to reply i find myself lacking evidence or reasoning, can anyone give me some links to either unbiased (is there such a thing?) abortion info sites or more realistically a selection which show all sides of the arguement? (pro, anti, scientific)

m.

27

Mordib :

Some pro-life websites.

Some pro-choice websites.

I would also suggest searching in GD for previous abortion threads, and checking out this site.

I hope that helps as a starting point :slight_smile:

28

thanks Goo,

i havent had time to read them all thouroughly but a 30minute browse gives me the impression the pro-life sites concentrate their efforts into explaining the negative physical/mental effects of having an abortion rather than the moral wrongs or rights of having one. And the pro choice sites concentrate on disproving these arguements and putting forword their own, again staying away from the moral/ethical/religeous side of things.

the final site you linked to however, Religeous Tolerance.org had a much more interesting (for me at least) look at the topic, including the following article

<b>‘The press, religious leaders, and others often emphasize uncompromising differences between pro-life and pro-choice beliefs. But, in reality, the two sides agree on almost everything: An ovum is a form of life.
An ovum is not a human person.
A spermatozoa is a form of life.
A spermatozoa is not a human person.
At or shortly after conception, a fertilized ovum is a form of life.
An embryo is a form of life.
A fetus is a form of life.
A newborn baby is a form of life.
A newborn baby is a human person.
Somewhere during the nine months between the ovum-spermatozoa stage and the newborn baby, human personhood begins.
When human personhood begins, an abortion should not be allowed, except under very unusual circumstances.
The only real difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers involves the question when does human personhood begins. Most pro-lifers believe it happens at conception. Most pro-choicers say that it happens later in pregnancy.’</b>

I guess following that logic I would class myself as a pro choicer as i dont believe that ‘human personhood’ as they call it begins at conception. Still I will read on and perhaps come back with more detailed arguement towards my views.

m.

29

I am an athiest and I believe abortion is wrong. That said, I’m in favor of abortion being a legally available procedure because I can see how two rational people can disagree on this issue.

Dev

30

I do not believe in the concept of “sin,” so I do not believe abortion is a sin.

My feelings on the moral status of abortion are somewhat muddled. I certainly see nothing wrong with birth control devices, such as IUDs, which prevent a fertilized egg from implanting, nor with “morning-after pills” like RU486. Given the number of fertilizations that naturally fail to implant or which spontaneously abort, I simply don’t see any great moral issue here.

Abortion after implantation I usually consider along a continuum, rather than drawing any bright lines. The more developed the embryo and then the fetus become, the more morally queasy I become. I don’t feel that a fetus has all the same rights the mother has, just as my six-year-old nephew does not have all the same rights I have. I’m not going to fool myself into anything suggesting that a fetus is not alive or is not human, but neither am I going to accept that aborting a fetus at 4 weeks of development is morally equivalent to shooting someone on the sidewalk.

31

Sin implies religious connotations. I am agnostic, so rather than ignore the question completely, I’ll say that I think abortion can be IMMORAL under certain circumstances. Third Trimester abortions, for example, I consider to be immoral.

Any abortion that happens before the unborn can feel pain is not wrong. If, as some pro-lifers claim, a fetus at a certain stage instinctively moves away from the abortion instruments of death, then I think it has a right to live. If it can survive outside the mothers womb, if it can dream (REM sleep), suck its thumb, and displays other characteristics that make it indistinguisable from a newborn baby except for where its located, then it should have the right to remain alive.

Some claim that an 8 month old fetus is technically a part of the mothers body, so she should have the right to kill it. But I think that it’s WHAT you are, and not WHERE you are, that determines whether you are a person.

But an embryo (IIRC, first trimester, when most abortions are performed) has no awareness of its surroundings, no sense of pain, no instinct of self preservation. Killing that is not even as bad as killing a worm.

32

The death penalty (in America) is carried out only after due process is given.

Abortion is carried out, for whatever reason, with no due process given the unborn child. All it takes is the will of the mother.

33

In this thread we are discussing this issue in a refreshingly concise and straightforward manner. I’m game.

I am a nonsectarian theist.

I believe it possible to “sin,” and that sin is to be shunned.

I do not believe that our modern Bible is “The Word of God.” But it may reflect a revelation from God. Therefore I treat it with respect.

However, I do not find that the Bible states with any clarity at all that abortion is, in general, a sin. Indeed, there is an Old Testament passage that seems to equate causing an abortion with property offenses against the father–not with murder.

I think what we are calling the “zef” is a human being, but not necessarily a human person. It becomes a human person upon the complete engagement of a human soul. I think it not credible to assume this takes place prior to the growing organism becoming fairly complete and distinctly human: not only in terms of its chromosomes, but its nervous/cortical development.

Roughly put, you are not human until you can (ie, potentially) engage in those modes of thinking that are characteristic of homo sapiens. At that point, to abort for any reason other than to definitely save the life of the mother, is murder–though in a just and democratic society, it is a kind of murder that is in a practical sense beyond the reach of the law.

Very early-term abortions are neither more nor less sinful than birth control. There ensues a longish middle-range in which abortion is not murder, but yet a sin of lesser gravity–the destruction of a beautiful and complex growing organism touched with humanity. It should not be undertaken lightly, out of respect both for the value of life in general, and for the value of humanity in particular.

It is a greater sin to devalue and oppress already-born women (by excessively policing their actions with regard to such an intimate and delicate matter), than to permit even late-term abortions.

Yet, to the extent that society can take a position on the morality of something without penalizing those who defy it, we ought to discourage abortion after the very earliest period. Perhaps even agreeing to use the word only to describe “non-early” terminations of growth, not such things as the “morning after pill.”

34

In this thread we are discussing this issue in a refreshingly concise and straightforward manner. I’m game.

I am a nonsectarian theist.

I believe it possible to “sin,” and that sin is to be shunned.

I do not believe that our modern Bible is “The Word of God.” But it may reflect a revelation from God. Therefore I treat it with respect.

However, I do not find that the Bible states with any clarity at all that abortion is, in general, a sin. Indeed, there is an Old Testament passage that seems to equate causing an abortion with property offenses against the father–not with murder.

I think what we are calling the “zef” is a human being, but not necessarily a human person. It becomes a human person upon the complete engagement of a human soul. I think it not credible to assume this takes place prior to the growing organism becoming fairly complete and distinctly human: not only in terms of its chromosomes, but its nervous/cortical development.

Roughly put, you are not human until you can (ie, potentially) engage in those modes of thinking that are characteristic of homo sapiens. At that point, to abort for any reason other than to definitely save the life of the mother, is murder–though in a just and democratic society, it is a kind of murder that is in a practical sense beyond the reach of the law.

Very early-term abortions are neither more nor less sinful than birth control. There ensues a longish middle-range in which abortion is not murder, but yet a sin of lesser gravity–the destruction of a beautiful and complex growing organism touched with humanity. It should not be undertaken lightly, out of respect both for the value of life in general, and for the value of humanity in particular.

It is a greater sin to devalue and oppress already-born women (by excessively policing their actions with regard to such an intimate and delicate matter), than to permit even late-term abortions.

Yet, to the extent that society can take a position on the morality of something without penalizing those who defy it, we ought to discourage abortion after the very earliest period. Perhaps even agreeing to use the word only to describe “non-early” terminations of growth, not such things as the “morning after pill.”