# Is Absolute Pacifism Dangerous **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721 "2010-10-10T21:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/21 "2010-10-11T00:37:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@pravnik](#): > > > > How are they going to physically restrain him to jail him? > > Nonviolently, I’d assume. Maybe trick him into jumping into a glue vat or something. Tell him there’s a tied-up virgin in it. Candygram for Mongo! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/22 "2010-10-11T00:41:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I am pretty much a pacifist. i have not had a fight since I was about 11. I was also a competitive weightlifter when I was young. Bullies left me alone and it suited me fine. Bullies tend to avoid someone who could rip their head off, and look for a safer target? Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/23 "2010-10-11T00:57:48Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > I am pretty much a pacifist. i have not had a fight since I was about 11. I was also a competitive weightlifter when I was young. Bullies left me alone and it suited me fine. > > Bullies tend to avoid someone who could rip their head off, and look for a safer target? Just a thought. That is probably true ,but I started lifting because I was sick a lot when i was a kid. Two bouts of rheumatic fever, bowel obstructions, appendicitis and heart murmers kept me very weak and thin. I wanted to get stronger and healthier. Now I am old and look chubby. I was involved in marches for black rights when i was in my first year of college, the beginning of the 60s. Then I started again when Nam came along. In both cases we preached non -violence . It was not easy to take abuse from so many people . But if the cause is just, it has to win out. That was how we believed. It could work back then. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/24 "2010-10-11T01:04:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Even the kind of passive resistance advocated by Gandhi can work only if you are operating within a modern, civilized society. And even then, only if it is the kind of modern, civilized society where dissidents do not simply disappear in the middle of the night, never to be heard from again. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/25 "2010-10-11T03:26:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not true, as I understand it there have also been isolated societies that were pacifist and survived because the more aggressive ones weren’t in range. Of course, that only lasts as long as the isolation does. An historical example can be found in the history of the [Chatham Islands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_Islands#History): > [@wiki](#): > > The Moriori society was a peaceful society and bloodshed was outlawed by the chief Nunuku after generations of warfare. Arguments were solved by consensus or by individual duels rather than warfare, but at the first sign of bloodshed, the fight was over. And, as **Der Trihs** suggested, it lasted only as long as the isolation: > [@wiki](#): > > On November 19, 1835, a British ship carrying 500 Māori armed with guns, clubs and axes arrived, followed by another ship on December 5, 1835 with a further 400 Māori. They proceeded to massacre the Moriori and enslave the survivors. A Moriori survivor recalled: “[The Māori] commenced to kill us like sheep… [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed - men, women and children indiscriminately”. A Māori conqueror justified their actions as follows: “We took possession… in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped…”[3] > > After the invasion, Moriori were forbidden to marry Moriori, nor to have children with each other. All became slaves of the Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga invaders. And many were eaten. :eek: Seems to me a strong form of natural selection against pacifistic societies except in extraordinary circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/26 "2010-10-11T05:51:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > Is absolute pacifism, that is not offering violence even for self-defence or even when many people are threatened immoral? Although its an idea that’s been advocated by many idealists (such as Tolstoy) if actually implemented by a population not protected by people who do not adhere to absolute pacifism they’d be doomed once the next enemy came over the hill. > > Personally, I think it is wrong. If you are choosing to do absolutely nothing to oppose or stop an evil, you are allowing it, encouraging it, reinforcing it. Do you see a distinction between someone who is pacifist and someone who is comatose? You seem to be equating pacificism with… narcolepsy? One can be a pacifist and still: stand up and argue. stand in the path of an opponent. lie down in the path of an opponent refuse to cooperate refuse to pay taxes refuse to work I’m not sure… can a pacifist encourage non-pacifists to get violent? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/27 "2010-10-11T06:09:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m not sure… can a pacifist encourage non-pacifists to get violent? That would be just a tad hypocritical. “Threaten you? why, I’d never dream of harming a hair on your head. But I’m afraid ‘Chainsaw’ Bob here has yet to achieve enlightenment. _Do_ try to minimize the blood spatter this time, Bob.” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/28 "2010-10-11T06:32:51Z")
I never heard a rule that pacifist can’t be hypocrites. I might have cited Dick Cheney until he shot that guy in the head… Oh, never mind, IIRC he shot at anything that moved. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/29 "2010-10-11T06:35:45Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I never heard a rule that pacifist can’t be hypocrites. But then they wouldn’t really be pacifists. It’s a description not a political party; it’s your beliefs and actions that qualify you, not your name on a membership roll. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/30 "2010-10-11T07:11:14Z")
Ok, maybe they can’t be hypocrites about violence, only about every other thing. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/31 "2010-10-11T07:14:08Z")
Pacifists are silly freeloaders. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/32 "2010-10-11T11:07:16Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Often while referencing Gandhi one will hear his suppossed answer to the question “What do you think of Western Civilization?”, when he famously replied “It would be good if they would try some”. Or some such sentiment - I don’t remember his exact wording. If we tried some _what_ ? Anyway, thanks very much Gandhi, but at least here when we swallow a drop of water, we don’t have the runs for 3 days :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/33 "2010-10-11T11:38:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@appleciders](#): > > > > And, you know, Jesus. > > Only through a hyper-literal approach and without prooftexting (ie looking into other Bible passage) that passage. So there’s a Bible passage of Jesus beating someone up? Sweet! Being pacific is not the same thing as being passive. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/34 "2010-10-11T11:42:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > Only through a hyper-literal approach and without prooftexting (ie looking into other Bible passage) that passage. > > So there’s a Bible passage of Jesus beating someone up? Sweet! > > Being pacific is not the same thing as being passive. …or atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/35 "2010-10-11T12:34:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > Only through a hyper-literal approach and without prooftexting (ie looking into other Bible passage) that passage. > > So there’s a Bible passage of Jesus beating someone up? Sweet! Yes, there is - [cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2:15&version=NIV), [cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11:14-16&version=NIV), [cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21:11-13&version=NIV). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/36 "2010-10-11T14:26:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Gyrate](#): > > > > So there’s a Bible passage of Jesus beating someone up? Sweet! > > Yes, there is - [cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+2:15&version=NIV), [cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11:14-16&version=NIV), [cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21:11-13&version=NIV). > > Regards, > Shodan Fail, fail and fail. overturning tables is not anywhere near the same as beating someone up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/37 "2010-10-11T14:28:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@appleciders](#): > > > > And, you know, Jesus. > > Only through a hyper-literal approach and without prooftexting (ie looking into other Bible passage) that passage. Other Bible passages are irrelevant to what Jesus said. Jesus said what he said. The things that other people said other places in the Bible do not change or inform the quotes attributed to Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/38 "2010-10-11T14:34:12Z")
It’s funny that some of the criticims here – pacifists are “freeloaders,” they depend on “warriors” to protect them, etc. are some of the eaxct reasons that early Christians were despised in the Roman Empire. They were pacifists who refused to serve in the military or fight for their country. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/39 "2010-10-11T14:39:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s funny that some of the criticims here – pacifists are “freeloaders,” they depend on “warriors” to protect them, etc. are some of the eaxct reasons that early Christians were despised in the Roman Empire. They were pacifists who refused to serve in the military or fight for their country. You say that like it’s a bad thing. 😃 Just shows that some things never change. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721/40 "2010-10-11T15:04:03Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > It’s funny that some of the criticims here – pacifists are “freeloaders,” they depend on “warriors” to protect them, etc. are some of the eaxct reasons that early Christians were despised in the Roman Empire. They were pacifists who refused to serve in the military or fight for their country. > > You say that like it’s a bad thing. 😃 > > Just shows that some things never change. Heh. They were also seen as “unpatriotic” because they wouldn’t recognize or patronize the state temples. Supporting the state temples was seen more as a patriotic/nationalistic duty than a religious one and refusing to recognize them or drop a coin in the donation boxes was perceived as roughly equivalent to how modern day Americans view refusals to honor the flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance. The early Christians were basically the dirty, liberal hippies of their time [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-absolute-pacifism-dangerous/556721.md?page=3)